As I stated before, I’m more than happy to discuss the issue with you, but I don’t want to spend hours bringing you up to speed on the current state and thinking on Book of Mormon archeology. It’s complicated—much more complicated than “point to a Nephite city.”

If you are willing to put in the time and effort to educate yourself on the matter, then we could have a productive discussion. Until then, I’m not inclined to engage you in a debate.

But no one here wants to waste their time rehashing all the basics of very complex subject that goes far beyond your simplistic challenge.

Cr@ig: Ummm gee Mike, thanks for putting my simplistic challenge in its place…so where did you say those Nephite cities are again? After all its such a simplistic challenge…

As you know, Theodore, I reject your setting for the Land Southward, since it is not “nearly surrounded by water” in any sense except a continental one–which would render the phrase meaningless.

Not so. It is very meaningful.

One thing that has generated much confusion in the geography of the Book of Mormon is that directional locations are always relative to the context in which they are given. For example, in the following verse the land north refers to the land of Zarahemla.

Helaman 6:10
Now the land south was called Lehi, and the land north was called Mulek, which was after the son of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south.

However, another verse in Helaman refers to the land of Bountiful as being the north.

Helaman 1:23
And now he did not tarry in the land of Zarahemla, but he did march forth with a large army, even towards the city of Bountiful; for it was his determination to go forth and cut his way through with the sword, that he might obtain the north parts of the land.

In the following verse Bountiful is the land southward.

Alma 22:30-31
And [Bountiful] bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing….Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful…

Yet two verses later Bountiful is the land northward.

Alma 22:33
And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.

Note that the Nephites inhabited the land Bountiful and they “had hemmed in the Lamanites on the SOUTH.” South of the land Bountiful, so the Lamanites could not overrun it. It was on the SOUTH end of Bountiful (in line with Bountiful and Desolation) that there was a sea on the east and a sea on the west where they fortified a line to hem in the Lamanites (in Florida).

In Alma 22, Mormon pauses in his narrative about Aaron converting the king of the Lamanites and gives a brief geographical overview. When Mormon continues with the narrative he refers in three separate verses to the “land of Nephi” and the “land of Zarahemla” as being the land of the Lamanites and the land of the Nephites respectively (Alma 26:23; 27:14; 27:14). In this context, and noting that that directional locations are always relative to the context in which they are given, Mormon’s summation statement becomes completely understandable and meaningful.

Alma 22:32
And thus the land of Nephi [land of the Lamanites] and the land of Zarahemla [land of the Nephites] [together] were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land [the Isthmus of Panama] between the land northward [North America] and the land southward [South America].

This is the only verse in the Book of Mormon where the phrase “small neck of land” is mentioned.

Steven said:

And, of course, your “Land South” has no narrow neck on its northern frontier.

It certainly does. The Delmarva Peninsula fits the text perfectly as a landmark BY the northern border of the Land Bountiful, at the place where the “sea divides the land” (Ether 10:20). There is no “hourglass” of seas between the Land of Bountiful and the Land of Desolation. One needs to think outside of the “hourglass.”

I believe that this misunderstanding of the text, and the misunderstanding of the direction of flow of the River Sidon, have been the main sources of confusion on the Book of Mormon geography for 180 years.

Theodore

Very simply, Theodore: The Nephites were in RETREAT. See Mormon 2:16, 20, 27-29; 3:5, 4:2-3, 18, 21-22; 5:3, 5, 6-7. According to the text, this period of retreat (with a few advances mixed in) lasted almost 40 years–from AD 345-384. Taking the above text in concert with Mormon 6:1-3, I must conclude that Cumorah is some distance north of Desolation–and even further north of the narrow neck which forms the northern border of the Land Southward.

By Mormon 2:29 (350 AD) the Nephites had been driven out of the Land of Bountiful and into the south of the Land Northward (Desolation). The border between the Nephites and Lamanites at this time was at the narrow pass. They then had a ten year truce to 360 AD (Mormon 3:1).

Mormon gathered his people to the city Desolation, near the narrow pass, in the southern end of the Land Northward (Mormon 3:5). The city changed hands a few times but in the year 375 the Nephites were driven out of the city of Desolation for the last time.

Morm 4:18
18 And from this time forth did the Nephites gain no power over the Lamanites, but began to be swept off by them even as a dew before the sun.

So this final rout from the south end of the Land Northward began in 375 AD and lasted to 384, a period of ten years, not forty. From there they were driven from city to city, still in the Land Northward. In 380 AD they were still being driven out of their cities and villages in the Land Northward (Mormon 5:3-6). That was when Mormon wrote to the King of the Lamanites and secured a truce to gather the Nephites to Cumorah. That gathering took four years (Mormon 6:1-5).

That Cumorah was still in the Land Northward or the Land Desolation, is evidenced by the fact that this was the same place where the Jaredites had been destroyed and was where the scouts of Limhi discovered their remains. This land Northward was called Desolation when the Nephites settled there in the days of Helaman (Helaman 3:3-6).

So even though the Nephites were driven northward for several years they were still in the Land Northward.

More later – Theodore

If they could migrate from Florida to Cumorah in a decade or two, what would prevent them from migrating and settling there over a century or two, or three, or four?

Very simply, Theodore: The Nephites were in RETREAT. See Mormon 2:16, 20, 27-29; 3:5, 4:2-3, 18, 21-22; 5:3, 5, 6-7. According to the text, this period of retreat (with a few advances mixed in) lasted almost 40 years–from AD 345-384. Taking the above text in concert with Mormon 6:1-3, I must conclude that Cumorah is some distance north of Desolation–and even further north of the narrow neck which forms the northern border of the Land Southward.

As you know, Theodore, I reject your setting for the Land Southward, since it is not “nearly surrounded by water” in any sense except a continental one–which would render the phrase meaningless.

And, of course, your “Land South” has no narrow neck on its northern frontier.

Still, my Florida setting would plausibly allow for a New York Cumorah, but it is perhaps more probable that it is (under this setting) in the Appalachian Mountains in north Georgia, eastern Tennessee, or western North Carolina.

Alma 46:
16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.

Also, Nephi seemes to be saying the land of promise was for the Christians, specifically the one’s in North America when he describes these events:

1 Nephi 13:

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.
14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.
15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.
18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.
19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren.

2 Nephi 1:

5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever,

and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me,

that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring.

And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them;

wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity;

for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

So, since the North America, specifically the USA, has been “lifted up by the power of God above all other nations” and they battled against the mother Gentiles and were delivered by the power of God, and since Nephi says it all happens “upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance” that he is seeing North America in his vision?

South America hasn’t had nearly the freedom we have enjoyed, so does that mean the people haven’t been righteous? Or maybe that land just wasn’t the one blessed with the promise… Did people go to South America for freedom or gold? I don’t know much about South American history, so the only people I know about going to South America for freedom were the Nazi war criminals. People did come to North America for religious and economic freedom. In South America I think it was strongly encouraged that everyone be Catholic (the great and abominable church), but in North America there were many Christian religions and the country didn’t dictate which one you had to belong to.

Before we begin any discussion on this subject, please familiarize yourself with the extensive literature on the subject. You can start here:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_archeology

Please read all the articles linked on that page, paying special attention to this one:

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=39

Having done that, I’m sure someone from FAIR will be willing to discuss this issue with you. But no one here wants to waste their time rehashing all the basics of very complex subject that goes far beyond your simplistic challenge.

Do I dare state the obvious…nothing has ever been found to confirm that any of those events ever took place anywhere…or that the civilizations described in the Book of Mormon even ever existed…

But hey I’d love to be proven worng…can someone please point me to a “Nephite” city? anyone?

I think you’re over-reading Alma 46. The point of the passage, in context (46:11–25), is that the land that Captain Moroni lived in he designated as a land of liberty for the Nephites. It has nothing to do with a prophecy of the future of the land.

I think Theodore’s theory sounds the best. A clue to this is in this verse:

Alma 46:
17 And it came to pass that when he had poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the south—A CHOSEN LAND, AND THE LAND OF LIBERTY.

If Desolation were in Central or South America then North America would be excluded as the chosen land of Liberty, and again D&C calls the North American continent where Warren Cowdery was appointed and ordained a presiding high priest the land of Freedom.