But what is the difference between Celestial Kingdom without marriage and Terrestrial Kingdom? (Besides less glory, God’s spirit, love.) They’re all Hell compared to exaltation.

D&C 88:21-24
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

Besides, one can live in the Celestial Kingdom without being married. One must be married in order to inherit the highest degree within the Celestial Kingdom, which is referred to as exaltation.

It’s like a poor person living in a third world country who appears happy, and maybe they are, but when his rich friend in America invites him to his house to visit, and he swims in his pool, and rides his horses, and eats lots of yummy food, he realizes there is more happiness available.

But then he finds out that there are some strict community covenants that he must abide by if he wants to live there, which he doesn’t want to follow. And then he finds out that he feels uncomfortable around the neighbors. He then realizes that he was happier where he lived before.

I look at it this way; if a person doesn’t want to live the law of consecration (if that is a true law of happiness) then it is because he is deceived and thinks it won’t make him happy. But you seem to be saying it won’t make him happy, that we have different requirements for happiness, so the goal of missionaries is to find those who would be happy living the law of the celestial kingdom. But then it can’t be greater happiness but different happiness, and if we all wanted to become like God in the premortal existence then we must all want the same happiness. I think the reason people choose a path of lesser happiness is because they are deceived, they don’t know anything better. It’s like a poor person living in a third world country who appears happy, and maybe they are, but when his rich friend in America invites him to his house to visit, and he swims in his pool, and rides his horses, and eats lots of yummy food, he realizes there is more happiness available.

And what is the difference between the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Telestial if no one is sinning? They would be living the same kind of lives, just receiving less glory or portion of God’s spirit (so less love?). And what’s the difference, for that matter, between those of the lower two degrees of the Celestial kingdom and the Terrestrial kingdom? They all can’t have children. No one can have children except those of the highest degree, and I’m sure there are many good people who would go to the Terr. because they’re not LDS who are great parents and love kids. So, when you look at it that way there really are only two choices, heaven and hell.

And if Telestial people are happy in this life when they’re sinning, then how will they be happy in the next life when they’re not allowed to sin? And if they’re not happy in this life does that mean they don’t want to be happy? No, it just means they are deceived and think their way of life brings happiness. Why can’t God say in the next life, “you, an imperfect being, have made some irrational choices that weren’t in your self-interest, and here is how you could do better”? More likely he would let us see and figure out for ourselves objectively how we could do better. Besides, there are lots of scriptures that say we won’t be happy unless we achieve the highest.

Here’s another example; I listen to this Christian radio station and I have born again Christian relatives and friends, and they have just as high moral standards as LDS (they would probably say higher since they don’t believe in polygamy), and they sound like LDS, and they talk about God answering their prayers, and faith, and it’s all the same. They are so committed they would probably never convert to the LDS religion. They believe families will be together in the next life (though probably not married because of the scripture in the NT). Why would they be excluded from the Celestial Kingdom, when they clearly could and would obey the laws of it, just because they don’t accept a certain religion called LDS? Why can’t God set them straight in the spirit world, if he won’t here, and say “this is the right one”? Why do they have to just take someone else’s word for it?

But you will probably say God does tell them through the Holy Ghost (a feeling) and so they really know and they’re rejecting knowledge. But I don’t think they know just because they feel; I think feelings can bring about beliefs, but not knowledge. I believe because of my feelings, but maybe that’s because I’ve been taught all my life and it’s just engrained in me. If I look at it objectively without feeling, I am less like to believe. I don’t see why they have to contradict when God made us rational beings so that we could survive. Faith has to be based on something rational. I have faith that the yeast will rise the bread because my friends tried it, or it has worked for me before, but my faith is in vain if the yeast is too old, or the temperature too hot or cold, etc. As far as commandments go, faith works very well because they are based on Natural Laws. But someone may have faith that he will be saved if he becomes a Jehovah Witness, because it sounds good to him and he may have strong feelings about it, enough to go proselyte. If he is wrong, then his faith isn’t based on true laws. And how is he to know if it is based on true laws? That is where the studying part comes in.

You have raised some good points and questions.

Mortality is the stage of our life where we individually determine the type of life we want for eternity. The reason that there is a veil over our memories and our knowledge of God, is so that we can learn to exercise faith. Faith is the principle of all action and the principle on which the power of God is exercised. Through our experiences in this life, and in the subsequent Spirit World, each one can then determine where and how we want to live our lives throughout all eternity. Self interest and choice is primary, but we are all different and not everyone will choose the same level. There are three degrees of happiness. When the knowledge is gained and the deceiving influence of Satan is removed, everyone will choose the level of happiness that will fit them the best.

All three kingdoms are kingdoms of glory and happiness. There are different levels of law and commitment for each kingdom. For example the economic law of the Celestial Kingdom is the Law of Consecration and Stewardship. Most people are not going to want to live that law. Alma says that we will be “our own judges” (Alma 14:7), and that each one of us will be raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good (Alma 41:5). When every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess that His judgment is just (Mosiah 27:31). The following poem by Carol Lynn Pearson sums it up quite nicely:

Judged

I don’t fret
As to where
My soul will
Be assigned—
Weather I’ll find
Me with the Celestial
Or not quite
Qualify.

It’s simple:
Water meets
It’s own level—
So shall I.

“Every knee will bow…” implies that all will worship him, besides the fact that even though they are in another kingdom, they will not be sinning anymore. Either they are forcibly changed, or they are no longer deceived and cannot deceive anyone because everyone knows they know. They would have to say the sun isn’t shining when it obviously is. This implies that everyone who sins is deceived. I believe that because we are self-interested we always make choices we believe are in our self-interest, so if we make a bad choice, or one with negative consequences, it is because we are deceived. So, why does one have to be damned for eternity? Why can’t we just be damned until we repent, and still progress? We must believe in Christ so we will do what he requires of us (baptism, etc.), but what about people who live very good lives and don’t believe in Jesus? They might feel good about it because it sounds good, but they can’t really believe it’s the truth for whatever various reasons, and not because they don’t want to keep the commandments. Really, belief isn’t enough; knowledge is needed. If everyone had knowledge, no one would be deceived.

If God is a monarch, then still the majority would have to be good and united with God for God to even be God, unless we don’t have free will, which is what Evangelists believe. In other words, if we have free will then no one forces us to worship God, and if no one worshiped God, he would not be God except to himself.

There may be a few flaws in the above reasoning. If God is the monarch of all and the creator of all, he does not require a majority to worship Him in order to retain his standing as God. He is still the monarch over them whether they believe it or not. If no one worshipped him, like in the days of Noah, He would simply take them out of the mortal world and give some others an opportunity to worship Him, and thereby achieve the eternal joy for which they were created.

More about the nature of God:

If God were a majority of the spirits, then if the majority were bad, justice would not be upheld.

If God is a monarch, then still the majority would have to be good and united with God for God to even be God, unless we don’t have free will, which is what Evangelists believe. In other words, if we have free will then no one forces us to worship God, and if no one worshiped God, he would not be God except to himself.

If God is Natural Law, the consequences of our actions judge us, and if our spirits live on then we have to face the same people we offended in this life and try to reconcile with them, just like we would here. If we love others and make friends here, we will have the same friends in the next life.

“Heliacal Rising: when a star makes its first seasonal appearance on the eastern horizon just before dawn.

“Culmination: when a star stands on the zenith meridian. After its heliacal rising, a star rises a little earlier each night until, halfway into its season of visibility, it is up all night. It then culminates at midnight. The nonsetting circumpolar stars can culminate, either low in the north (inferior) or overhead (superior).

“Heliacal Setting: when a setting star makes its last seasonal appearance on the western horizon just after sunset.”

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi31.htm
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi153.htm
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi32.htm

For example the ages of the patriarchs are allusions to astrology. Nimrod, the mighty Hunter before the Lord, is the God of the constellation of Orion (the hunter). Another name for him is Ptah or Osiris, the craftsman. The Masons revere him. He is the first mason after the flood. Cain was the first mason before the flood (he built the first city). God confounded the languages so they could not have one world government. The Book of Genesis sounds like it was written by Masons. The original Jewish religion was after the Masonic order. Another description would be Jewish gnosticism.

The scribes of the OT wrote from their point of view, from the middle east.

That may be true to a certain extent, but an explicit exception is the 1st Book of Moses, or Genesis. We learn from Moses 1:2 that God dictated Genesis to Moses and Moses wrote what God said. Since the Book of Moses came by revelation to Joseph Smith, then in order to know if that is in fact true, one must know if Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. The only way one can know if Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God is to ask God, with a sincere heart and with real intent.

Once one has received direct revelation confirming that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, then many questions are answered more definitively.

Theodore

The scribes of the OT wrote from their point of view, from the middle east. They name the rivers they assume the reader is familiar with, especially the Euphrates. The four rivers part before the Persian Gulf and empty into it, so maybe Eden was where the Persian Gulf is. I don’t think it’s north west of this area because that’s where the heads of the rivers are.

Genesis 2:
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

Please read what I wrote about the Sons of God in “Forays amongst the disaffected”.

What I didn’t add was that the scripture could also mean sons of gods (elohim). If that is the case these gods would be the fallen angels The book of Enoch talks about who gave men advanced knowledge of metallurgy, writing, astronomy, etc., the stuff the Sumerians claim was given to them by their gods who came from the planet Nibiru. Yes, this is all recorded in their writings. These “gods” could just be an advanced human civilization that made the Sumerians their vassals; some think aliens from another planet; or maybe they are evil spirits who gave knowledge in exchange for the people’s loyalty/worship. This is how monolatry became polytheism.

Some people say the scriptures don’t say the blacks are descendents of Cain, but they do:

Moses 7:
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

The people of Canaan must be the seed of Cain.

Abraham 1:
21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.
22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.

Wouldn’t all of Ham’s children be black, or at least brown? But they weren’t.

If Cain went east of Eden he could have gone to Persia, or India, or China. If the mark was something his progeny inherited, maybe it’s the Mongolian spot.

I really think the god talking to Cain is not the true God. Why is he protecting him when he deserves to be executed? I think the mark was maybe a tattoo or brand to show Cain now belonged to this god, and was his servant. Cain was making a covenant with this god. Slaves were branded or tattooed. The god was offering him protection if he served him.

I don’t know. I haven’t really pondered these questions. Dr. Milton R. Hunter suggested that the river was the Mississippi and the four “heads” were its four main tributaries. (see Pearl of Great Price Commentary, 1948, p. 108). A variation of this is suggested by Dr. Eric N. Skousen (see Earth In The Beginning p. 201).

Yes they would have had oars or paddles. A barge is a vessel that is pushed or pulled, rather than being propelled by sail. The Volga is 2300 miles long but only has and elevation drop of 800 feet along its entire length. It is almost like a 2300 mile-long lake.

I should have told you that I read what you quoted above.

“An interesting thing about the Caspian Sea is that the largest and longest river in Europe empties into the north end of it.”

Doesn’t that mean they had to sail upstream? Are you saying they could because they had oars?

Are you saying the Jaredites sailed upstream from the caspian Sea? Is that possible?

The Jaredites left Babel and traveled overland northward into a valley called Nimrod. From there the Lord guided them to a sea where they built barges (see Ether 2). The most logical route north from Babel would have been to go up the Diyala River Valley into what is now northern Iran. This valley has been an important trade route through the centuries. Continuing north leads into the valley of Lake Urmia which is about 100 miles south of Mount Ararat and would be a probable location for the Valley of Nimrod. From there the Lord directed them through the wilderness to the shores of a sea where they built barges. This would be the Caspian Sea, about 170 miles east of the Valley of Nimrod. The Mediterranean Sea was west of Babel, rather than north. The Black Sea was much farther from Babel, across the high mountains of Turkey.

A barge is generally a vessel that is pushed or pulled through the water. This indicates that they rowed or oared these vessels rather than being propelled by sail. These vessels did not have a top on them like the later vessels they built, which is evidenced by the fact that there was no concern about lighting them, ventilating them, or being able to see to steer them.

And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord. (Ether 2:6)

Notice that the Jaredites crossed “many waters” in these barges, and had to be continually directed by the Lord in doing so. An interesting thing about the Caspian Sea is that the largest and longest river in Europe empties into the north end of it. The Volga River goes from the Caspian Sea all the way through the heart of present day Russia. It is unlikely that the Lord would have the Jaredites build barges just to cross the Caspian Sea. It would have taken less time to walk around the southern end of the sea than to build vessels to cross it. The likeliest scenario is that the Jaredites rowed to the north end of the Caspian Sea, and then up the full length of the Volga to its source in the Valdai Hills of Russia. That would put the Jaredites only 200 miles from the Baltic Sea.

To get from the Volga River to the west coast of Norway they could have gone overland for 200 miles and built new ships on the Baltic Shore. However, their most likely course of action was to portage their lightweight ships for about 15 miles, from the Volga River to the Western Dvina River (Daugava), which flows into the Baltic Sea near Riga, Latvia. The Vikings portaged their Longships between these two rivers for three centuries and there is considerable similarity between the Viking Longships and the description of the Jaredite barges. From the head of the Dvina they could row their vessels down the river, then through the Baltic to the western shore of the Scandinavian Peninsula.

Theodore

The scriptural evidence is that the Atlantic Ocean has always been the divider of the land mass since the days of Adam. Eden was “eastward” on the land mass (Moses 3:8), and Adam’s grandson, Enos, moved the people of God from the place that Adam dwelt, in Missouri, to the “land of Cainan, a journey from the east sea” Moses 6:17,41-42). The land division in the days of Peleg would have been on the west of America, near the “boundaries of the everlasting hills (D&C 133:23-31). Not that the Pacific Ocean was not there, but there would have been a connection between America and Asia, perhaps in the area of the Bering Straits, Bering Sea, and or the Aleutian Islands.

It is not that the continents drifted apart but that the land sunk. We learn from the following scripture that the land will be lifted or “cast up” again, to prepare the way for the return of the Lost Tribes to the area of the “boundaries of the Everlasting Hills.”

D&C 133:23-32
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

There is some question as to whether this event is to occur prior to or after the coming of the Lord. There are two pieces of evidence that indicate the Lost Tribes will return prior to the coming of the Lord. First, in verse 28 above it refers to the “enemies” of the Tribes becoming a “prey unto them.” This is war language and wars are supposed to cease after the coming of the Lord. Second, Moses gave Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery the keys of “the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north” (D&C 110:11). Those keys are held by the prophets today. When the Lord returns, all of the keys of the Priesthood will be given back to Jesus Christ because he will be the presiding authority during the Millennium. So, why would Moses give keys to the prophets today that are not going to be utilized until after they are given back to the Savior?

More later on the Jaredites journey.

Are you saying the land divided (in the days of Peleg) where the Pacific ocean is? So the Atlantic is older and was always there?

Are you saying the Jaredites sailed upstream from the caspian Sea? Is that possible?

The theory that the Jaredites went east across Asia comes from the supposition that they landed on the west coast of America. The text of the Book of Mormon however indicates that they landed on the east coast of North America. I don’t know if you read my reasoning on the route of their journey, derived from the text of the Book of Mormon, under the heading “The Journey of the Jaredites.”

I think the Mongolians came a long time after the Jaredites and there is some indication that they may be Israelites.

I read that the Mongols came from Mespotamia, and I always had the theory (from my mother) that the Jaredites went east from Mesopotamia to Asia (China) before coming to America, and that some of them dropped off in Asia instead of coming to America becoming the Mongolian people. Well, if the Mongolians are the ancestors of the Jaredites, then most of the Lamanites are part Jaredite. Maybe they built the ziggurats and weren’t all killed off. What do you think?

http://books.google.com/books?id=SmusEB_O-7MC&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=governor+of+tiberias&source=bl&ots=dqeCez_zzj&sig=1FQso0RYWsSgiUlNzd_ryan1CCM&hl=en&ei=dZFjSub9NYqssgPXooVn&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi47.htm
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi48.htm

Gospel Doctrine Apologetics: D&C Lesson 27 July 17th, 2009 at 10:03 pm.

D&C 100:9-11
9 And it is expedient in me that you, my servant Sidney, should be a spokesman unto this people; yea, verily, I will ordain you unto this calling, even to be a spokesman unto my servant Joseph.
10 And I will give unto him power to be mighty in testimony.
11 And I will give unto thee power to be mighty in expounding all scriptures, that thou mayest be a spokesman unto him, and he shall be a revelator unto thee, that thou mayest know the certainty of all things pertaining to the things of my kingdom on the earth.

2 Nephi 3:
18 And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it.

Who is Joseph’s spokesman?

In paragraph two the book of Ether was Moroni’s abridgement not Nephi’s.

If their earliest remains are in Greenland and Iceland then they very well could have come from the mainland of North America. I’ve never heard this theory before and it doesn’t say anything about it in the Book of Mormon does it? Are you the first one to think of it?

Your prior thoughts on this scripture have been the common interpretation of it because all of the Nephites had been destroyed, and Joseph Smith did not have Lamanite ancestry. However, taken in context it is clear that the main theme of the blessing from the dying Lehi is that the choice seer would be a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi.

This brings us back to the information provided in the Book of Mormon about Hagoth (Alma 63:5-8), which I mentioned in the Gospel Doctrine thread July 18th, 2009 at 5:16 pm . In the North American setting for the Book of Mormon laid out in my thesis, Hagoth launched his large ships into the Atlantic Ocean at the north end of Chesapeake Bay, which is the sea on west side of the narrow neck of the Delmarva Peninsula. In addition to being an artisan in the building of ships he was obviously very inquisitive as to what lay across long distances of Ocean. Why else would he build such “exceedingly large” ships? He would have known from the record of Ether that the Jaredites had come from a land across the east sea and he may have been seeking to find that land. Twice in the above mentioned scripture it says that they took “much provisions.” This also indicates that they were planning a long voyage and not just moving further north on the continent. Hagoth also would have known from the record of Ether the design of the Jaredite ships. The design given in the original Book of Ether was probably more detailed than what we have in Nephi’s abridgement. It is also probable that Nephites found remains of Jaredite ships that survived the destruction and desolation.

The record informs us that in 55 BC several large ships, with many Nephites and many provisions, sailed northward from the Atlantic Coast and were lost to the history of the Nephites. Mormon recounted this historical event 400 years later. If these lost Nephites had remained somewhere on the continent their descendents should have been known by that time. Therefore, either they left the continent and landed elsewhere, or they were drowned at sea. It is not likely that all of the ships would be lost at sea so we may assume that the majority of them landed elsewhere. Additionally, if these Nephites who sailed away in the ships of Hagoth were not going to have any meaning for our day, why did the Lord inspire Mormon to even mention them?

When sailing the Atlantic northward away from the North American Continent, the first two inhabitable landings, are Greenland and Iceland. These are also the lands where the earliest archaeological remains of the Vikings are found. The Vikings later conquered and settled much of Northern Europe and the northern British Isles, and particularly the area of Joseph Smith’s ancestry. There is considerable evidence that Joseph Smith descended from the Vikings, as has probably every president of the Church since, including our present prophet Thomas S Monson. My theory is that they are all Nephites. Most of the early converts to the Church, may also be Nephites, as well as their descendants.

This is a theory that I developed after I came to the conclusion that Hagoth sailed into the North Atlantic, not the Pacific, as has been traditionally thought. There is considerable evidence to support this theory including a similarity in ship design, swords, armament, mound building, and racial profile.

Theodore

Look up this site and tell me if you think it looks like a Viking: http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi34.htm

3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed.
4 For behold, thou art the fruit of my loins; and I am a descendant of Joseph who was carried captive into Egypt. And great were the covenants of the Lord which he made unto Joseph. (2 Nephi 3:3-4),

The seed of Joseph, son of Lehi, would not utterly be destroyed because he was a descendent of Joseph of Egypt, and the Lord had made some great covenants with Joseph of Egypt. The scripture goes on to explain what the most significant promise was.

22 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy.
23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.
24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them [among the seed of Joseph, son of Lehi], who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren.
25 And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi, and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father. Amen. (2 Nephi 3:22-25, editorial comments added)

The scripture is clear that the choice seer of the restoration would be a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi. That is what the message of the dying Lehi to his son Joseph was all about. The reason that Lehi’s son Joseph was so blessed is because this choice seer, Joseph of the restoration, would be of his seed. The Prophet Joseph Smith was to be a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi.

Although there are different speculations, it is not know where the Vikings originated from. Their earliest archaeological remains are found in Greenland and Iceland.

Theodore

I read part of your paper and you seem to be under the impression that Joseph Smith is a descendent of Lehi’s son Joseph, but I don’t think the scripture is saying that, just that he came from Jacob’s son Joseph; that’s why he can be from Ephraim instead of Mannaseh. The Israelites travelled up north from Assyria and settled parts of Europe and became the Vikings.

Interesting stuff. I am almost illiterate on DNA but it would be very reasonable for Egyptian DNA to be found in the Cohens and the Levites. Their ancestors lived in Egypt for about 400 years. And very reasonable for many modern Jews to have a close DNA to Arabs. They also lived together for hundreds of years. Of course knowing what DNA of these lines looked like two or three thousand years ago compared to what they look like now I think is another matter. Also if you go back only about ten generations everyone has about 1,000 direct ancestors and each one of them could have slightly different origins, so I suppose one could find whatever one was looking for, if it was still there.

It is quite reasonable that Jesus, through his mother or adoptive father, could very well be of Judah and of Joseph. The genealogy in Matthew traces Joseph’s royal line but there are any number of other lines to follow.

Theodore

Theodore, you should read it.
I am sceptical about the genealogy of Jesus in the NT. Maybe the writers made it up. Maybe Jesus really is a descendent of Joseph–not just his father named Joseph, but the son of Israel. I’ve been reading on googlebooks parts of a book called “Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs”. This guy has a theory that the patriarchs were Hyksos pharaohs, there were two exoduses, and the Joseph having the birthright meant he was to be the next pharaoh, but they were kicked out of Egypt before that could happen and he had to be smuggled back in. Anyway, he gets to the part about Jesus being the next pharaoh down the line, and that is why his parents went to Egypt, and Herod felt so threatened. I don’t know yet if he has linked him to be a direct descendent of Joseph. But, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth was married to a Levite, and people usually married within their tribe so they wouldn’t lose their land inheritance, so maybe Elizabeth was a Levite and so was Mary. Also, he points out many reasons why Abraham on down were royalty, which I had thought of previous to reading this:

Abraham was told kings would come out of him (I don’t think it was just in the spiritual sense).

They kept genalogy (something the common people didn’t do).

He was entertained by the pharaoh. I don’t think every visitor to Egypt got to do that.

Pharaoh wanted to mary his “sister”. Why would he do that if she didn’t have some high status?

Her name means princess.

They married close relatives like the Egyptian pharaohs did.

Egypt mourned over Jacob’s and Joseph’s deaths, they were mummified, and Pharaoh’s house escorted the Israelites to Canaan to bury Jacobs body.

Joseph had to tell his brothers to SAY they were shepherds. Why would he have to tell them that unless they were NOT shepherds? (This is different than what the author says.)

Abraham had an army, gold, etc. and was very wealthy.

My theory is a little different than the guy who wrote the book. (He thinks they were in Egypt since Adam; I think Adam to Abraham were royalty in Mespotamia.) I think Nahor was older so he inherited Terah’s land, and Abraham just inherited people, cattle, and gold, so he had to leave to get his own land, unless the land was divided and his portion was in Canaan. Notice he travels and everywhere he stops he builds an altar and God tells him all the land he can see is his, like marking his territory. The war he fought when he rescued Lot sounds similar to one that Hammurabi fought. Hammurabi was an ally to these similar sounding countries. Then he turned on them and defeated them and expanded his kingdom. Did you know that Hammurabi is read wrong and is really Abraham?

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi57.htm

I disagree with your interpretation of Mark 12:35-37. If the Angel Gabriel told Mary that the Messiah would be the son of David, that’s good enough for me (Luke 1:32). Jesus said, “I came unto my own.” This implies a close, pre-mortal relationship with the Jews. It was planned long before He was born.

There are two grand priesthood governing offices. One is the King and the other is the Priest. The King line was to come through Judah and the Priest line to come through Joseph. That is why there was promised a Messiah ben Judah and a Messiah ben Joseph. Jesus was the Messiah ben Judah and Joseph Smith was the Messiah ben Joseph. Joseph was called to restore the Gospel to the earth. It is Joseph’s responsibility to rouse up Judah before the coming of the Millennium. If we don’t there won’t be a Millennium.

D&C 98:16-17
16 Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;
17 And again, the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets, and the prophets unto the Jews; lest I come and smite the whole earth with a curse, and all flesh be consumed before me.

The prophets are the Priests. They have to turn the hearts of the Jews to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ or there will be no Millennium.

Gen 49:9
9 Judah [is] a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

The Lord is the lion. Judah is His son. The prey of a lion is his food. The food of the Lord is the bread of life, or the Gospel. Judah went away from the Gospel and lay down on the job of carrying it to the rest of the world. In the last days who shall rouse him up? Joseph!

Theodore

See: http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/08/30/the-messiah-ben-joseph-tradition/