In between your sarcasm, it does not seem that you have paid very close attention to the discussion up to now. Since you are coming in late, hopefully we can make some things clear.

1) In the first place, FAIR does not hold the positions which you attribute to it.

FAIR endorses no geographical model of the Book of Mormon. There are members of FAIR who hold a North American model, some hold a continental model, some favor a Mesoamerican model, and a sizeable chunk don’t care and have no real opinion on the matter at all.

This is made very clear at the beginning of each section of the review listed here.

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2) In the second place, Joseph Smith made several statements about Book of Mormon geography. These statements changed over time–indicating that either he got revelation later in the process OR that he was speaking of his own best assessment of the evidence, and this changed as he learned more.

You can see all statements made by the prophet Joseph Smith here.

You can read about this and treatment of the evidence in our review of Rod Meldrum’s material here. You will note he both ignored evidence which did not fit his model, and distorted some which he did cite.

3) FAIR is not making the statement that prophets do not automatically know everything, especially peripheral details. FAIR has drawn that conclusion via numerous scriptures and statements of the modern prophets and apostles.

Joseph Smith himself said that a prophet was only a prophet “when he was acting as such.” Scripture makes it clear that even serious matters affecting the progress of the Church were not always revealed to Joseph (D&C 10:37).

In the LDS tradition, prophets are not omniscient, nor are they infallible

As George Q. Cannon explained:

The Presidency of the Church have to walk just as you walk. They have to take steps just as you take steps. They have to depend upon the revelations of God as they come to them. They cannot see the end from the beginning, as the Lord does. They have their faith tested as you have your faith tested. So with the Twelve Apostles. All that we can do is to seek the mind and will of God, and when that comes to us, though it may come in contact [conflict?] with every feeling that we have previously entertained, we have no option but to take the step that God points out, and to trust to Him… [George Q. Cannon, “Enduring to the End,” 5 October 1890; reported in ''Collected Discourses: delivered by Wilford Woodruff, his two counselors, the twelve apostles, and others'', Vol. 2, edited and compiled by Brian H. Stuy, (Woodland Hills, Utah: B. H. S. Publishing, 1988), 115–116.]

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Finally, leaders of the Church have repeatedly been clear that there is no revealed location for Book of Mormon geography.

FAIR aims to support and defend the leaders of the Church. And our review used their words on this point.

If you are convinced that the Church and its leaders are neglecting a revelation to the prophet Joseph Smith on Book of Mormon geography, and not teaching it, perhaps you should make your concern known by writing to:

President Boyd K. Packer
President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
50 E. North Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

You should explain to him how he and the other prophets and apostles are ignoring a revelation to Joseph Smith. You may even with to point out how FAIR members are also guilty of “heresy” on this point, as you put it, and that many employees of the Church’s flagship university (BYU, in Provo) have published and taught the same thing for over fifty years. You should also point out that Rod Meldrum is trying to correct this matter.

Please let us know how he replies.

Your recent comment on this and other blog threads (making essentially the same claims) are, unfortunately, why FAIR believed it was necessary to respond to the material and claims made by Rod Meldrum which are at variance with the teachings of the living prophets and the historical record.

I hope you will examine the evidence and refrain from charging members of the Church (including the prophets and apostles) who do not agree with you with heresy or a rejection of Joseph Smith’s or Brigham Young’s prophetic role.

Best wishes,

Greg Smith

That’s not necessarily true. Mormon does not note sparseness in the land northward, but does note how large the population is southward.

Oh, I don’t think that’s true, because we know the plates were buried at the hill cumorah. Why is it unreasonable to start at that location?

Great. My husband needs to learn about this….

We have certainly walked over the some of the same ground in Manitoba. The DNA issue of haplogroup x is highly controversial, mainly because of the timeline beyond the Book of Mormon migration years. I get a kick out of science arguments about this, because DNA of humans already indicate a beginning much older than the Bible chronology. The bottom line is, no scientific proof can be found to indisputably verify the Book of Mormon because of what it would do to the need for faith. When a focus of study becomes too concentrated in one geographical area, many things are overlooked in other places. Entire groups of people who interacted in the 19th century gathering are disregarded because of popular scholarly models. I am not proposing that what I mentioned is right, simply that there is much more to consider than ancient ruins of long ago.

With age comes wisdom. I do not understand much about DNA but I hope you are correct on the subject. I was very interested in your thoughts on Ephraim and the bison. Here is a quote from Monte S Nyman on the subject:

“All interpreters agree that the white bull represents the David Messiah, while the buffalo (wild ox) immediately brings to mind the blessing given to Joseph in Deuteronomy 33:13-17. The great horns with which the bullock is to push Israel together are “the emblem of Messiah ben Joseph” according to The Jewish Encyclopedia. Of this Enoch passage Charles Torrey writes:
In thus seems assured, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the “great animal” of Enoch 90:38, destined to appear in the very last days, is the Messiah ben Joseph. It is not by accident that the words with which he is introduced, “and the foremost among them (the cattle) was the buffalo,” repeat the beginning of Deut. 33:17: “The firstling of his herd, … his horns are the horns of the wild-ox.” The author of Enoch, who knew the Jewish tradition, intended by his “buffalo” the divine-human scion of Joseph’s house. With the buffalo, yet above him, stood the white bull, the Anointed One of David’s line; “and the Lord of the sheep rejoiced over them both.” (Monte S. Nyman, ed., Isaiah and the Prophets: Inspired Voices from the Old Testament, p.14)

You wrote:

**I wonder if you fully realize the North American river drainage. Along the Minnesota/North Dakota border, the Red River flows from south to north, draining into Lake Winnipeg, which in turn drains into Hudson Bay through the Nelson River. To the east of the Red River, in Minnesota, are the headwaters of the Mississippi at Lake Itasca, and it flows south. West of North Dakota, in Montana, the Missouri river begins, and crosses both North and South Dakota on it’s flow southward. In one region rivers are flowing both directions.**

Having spent most of my life in Alberta, courted my wife while she was attending the University of Manitoba, and spent many days near the headwaters of the Missouri River, I am somewhat familiar with the rivers of which you speak.

Helaman 3:8

“And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.”

Thanks for your comments.

-Theodore

“Nothing fits properly with the river running from south to north, whether it is in Mesoamerica or Northern US, and nothing ever will. It’s trying to put square pegs into round holes. There is no solution to the puzzle with the river running from south to north because it didn’t”.

I do not disagree with you, but I wonder if you fully realize the North American river drainage. Along the Minnesota/North Dakota border, the Red River flows from south to north, draining into Lake Winnipeg, which in turn drains into Hudson Bay through the Nelson River. To the east of the Red River, in Minnesota, are the headwaters of the Mississippi at Lake Itasca, and it flows south. West of North Dakota, in Montana, the Missouri river begins, and crosses both North and South Dakota on it’s flow southward. In one region rivers are flowing both directions.

Alma 50:11
11 And thus he cut off all the strongholds of the Lamanites in the east wilderness, yea, and also on the west, fortifying the line between the Nephites and the Lamanites, between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi, from the west sea, running by the head of the river Sidon…

Rivers run to the sea.

Theodore

Part of the Conclusion got cut off above it should read:

CONCLUSION: As rivers run to the sea, the river Sidon runs from Zarahemla south to Manti, and through the east/west narrow strip of wilderness to the “head of the river Sidon” near the sea.

**Yes, River Sidon does runthrough both Manti and Zarahemla–and Manti is to the south. The problem is that the headwaters are nearer to Manti than to Zarahemla, which means that Sidon runs from south to north.**

Steven, consider again carefully the following:

(Alma 22:27)
…a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west…

From the above we find:
A. The narrow strip of wilderness runs east and west round about on the edge of the seashore.
B. Manti is near the narrow strip of wilderness, that is by the sea.
C. The head of the river Sidon is by the narrow strip of wilderness, that is by the sea.

CONCLUSION: As rivers run to the sea, the river Sidon runs from Zarahemla SOUTH to Manti, and through the east/west narrow

The “head of the river Sidon” cannot be the “headwaters” of the river Sidon because it is by the sea and rivers run to the sea, not away from the sea. Rivers do not begin by the sea they end at the sea. The “head of the river Sidon” has to be the river delta, or “headland” where the river empties into the sea.

There is only one river in North America that meets the criteria for the river Sidon and that is the Mississippi. With the Mississippi as the river Sidon the text of the Book of Mormon matches the geography of North America perfectly, as I have explained in the above posts.

This is why there has never been a consensus on the geography of the Book of Mormon. It has always been assumed that the “head of the river Sidon was the “headwaters.” Nothing fits properly with the river running from south to north, whether it is in Mesoamerica or Northern US, and nothing ever will. It’s trying to put square pegs into round holes. There is no solution to the puzzle with the river running from south to north because it didn’t.

It is only when the “head of the river Sidon” is next to the sea, as demonstrated in the text above, that the picture becomes clear. With the “head of the river Sidon” being “Sidon Head,” the river delta, all of the text of the Book of Mormon fits beautifully into the geography of North America, from Costa Rica to Cumorah, as I have demonstrated in my thesis and in the foregoing posts.

-Theodore

I read your posts and your thesis. There are thing with which I agree, and others with which I profoundly disagree. Time and space preclude much treatment here.

Yes, River Sidon does runthrough both Manti and Zarahemla–and Manti is to the south. The problem is that the headwaters are nearer to Manti than to Zarahemla, which means that Sidon runs from south to north.

Theodore and other North American proponents, the Mississippi cannot be the River Sidon, because it flows in the wrong direction!

Moreover, both Manti and Zarahemla are in the Land Southward–and are thus south of the narrow neck. Based on those factors alone, there is only ONE North American candidate for the Land Southward: Peninsular Florida, because no other North American candidates for the River Sidon (that is, northward flowing) do not flow from a peninsular Land Southward to a narrow neck.

But there are problems with peninsular Florida, as well (I know; I live there! ). As I stated in my earlier posts, the souther part of the River Sidon is hilly, and FLorida is known for being FLAT (The hills that are there are quite short, and, at any rate, are, in my judgment, too far west.), which is fatal to that model, as well.

I’m not saying that Nephites didn’t live or trade in North America (The economics, I think, make that happening very likely!), but the geography in the text simply doesn’t match the geography of North America, but it does match that of Mesoamerica.

(Alma 22:30)
“And [Bountiful] bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their [the Jaredites] first landing.”

The Jaredites landed in the land the Nephites called Desolation. This could have been anywhere along 600 miles of Atlantic coastline from the Susquehanna River to Maine. However, Mormon narrows this down when he tells us that a Nephite city named Desolation was built in the borders by the sea, near the narrow pass which led to the land southward (Mormon 3:5). The “narrow pass” was the mountain pass where the Potomac Rivers flows through the Blue Ridge to the sea. This places the Nephite city of Desolation near present day Washington D.C. Moroni then explains that the Land of Moron was the first Jaredite kingdom and it was near the land called Desolation, or more specifically, near the land around the city of Desolation (Ether 7:4-6). A probable landing site for the Jaredites was therefore north of Washington D.C., near Newark, New Jersey. As the Delaware River is the western border of New Jersey, the land of Moron would probably have been roughly equivalent to the present state of New Jersey.

The great-grandson of Jared, Shule “went to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel” (Ether 7:9) There had to be iron ore nearby the Jaredite landing site. Forty miles northwest of Newark, near Andover, New Jersey, is a hill which had a massive deposit of hematite iron ore which was mined extensively before the Revolutionary War, and again in the mid 1800’s. It is estimated that a total of 400,000 tons of ore was taken from this location (New Jersey Geological Survey, Final Report of the State Geologist, 1910, pp. 79, 83).

The Jaredites mined various kinds of metals.

(Ether 10:23)
“And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work.”

There are over 340 different minerals that have been found in northwestern New Jersey, including gold, sliver and copper. This is about 10% of all known minerals and constitutes a world record for the number of mineral species from a single locality. The Sterling Hill Mining Museum, about 15 miles (25 km) north of Andover, is listed on the Register of Historic Sites (Sterling Hill Mine Museum web site). The rich mineral deposits in the state of New Jersey are supporting evidence for the supposition that this was the site of the landing of the Jaredites.

(Ether 6:18)
“And it came to pass that they began to spread upon the face of the land, and to multiply and to till the earth; and they did wax strong in the land.”

Shule, who was a righteous king to the Jaredites, “did spread his kingdom upon all the face of the land, for the people had become exceedingly numerous” (Ether 7:11). This would not include the Nephite lands of Bountiful or Zarahemla as the Jaredites never did settle in those areas.

(Ether 10:20-21)
“And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.
And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.”

(Ether 9:28-35)
“And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.
And it came to pass that there were many of them which did perish by the way; nevertheless, there were some which fled into the land southward.
And it came to pass that the Lord did cause the serpents that they should pursue them no more, but that they should hedge up the way that the people could not pass, that whoso should attempt to pass might fall by the poisonous serpents.”

The Jaredites preserved the Land Bountiful for a hunting preserve, and the poisonous serpents prevented them from going into the Land of Zarahemla. That the Jaredites were north of the Land Zarahemla is further evidence that they had settled in the Central Plains, where the scouts of Limhi first discovered their remains.

Therefore the Land of Desolation went from the Atlantic Ocean (north of the Land of Bountiful) to at least the Missouri river and possibly further west.

My foregoing posts have been an overview of how I believe the Lands of the Book of Mormon, as described in the text, fit accurately into the geography of North America, from Costa Rica to Cumorah.

If anyone is interested in learning more about the probable archaeological sites of the cities of Zarahemla and Bountiful and many other cities, other geographical locations and battle sites, you may download my thesis “A North American Setting For The Book Of Mormon” at http://brandley.poulsenll.org/ Be patient in giving it time to download as it is a big file in MS Word format.

Any questions or comments?

Theodore Brandley

The Jaredites began their journey from the Tower of Babel, which is located in present day Iraq on the Euphrates River, about 50 miles south of Baghdad. The Jaredites petitioned the Lord that he would lead them to a land “which is choice above all the earth.” The Lord had them gather their flocks and herds, and seeds of all kinds, and led them northward (Ether 1:33-42).

The Nephite land of Desolation was the place of the Jaredites (Alma 22:30). The land of Desolation bordered on the Atlantic Ocean so the Jaredites would have crossed the Atlantic to get there. The Jaredites left Babel and traveled overland northward into a valley called Nimrod. From there the Lord guided them to a sea where they built barges. They crossed this inland sea and then journeyed through a land where no man had ever been. They continued on until they came to the shores of that sea which divides the lands and remained camped on the shores of this sea for four years (Ether 2:1-13).

The most logical route north from Babel would have been to go up the Diyala River Valley into what is now northern Iran. This valley has been an important trade route through the centuries. Continuing north leads into the valley of Lake Urmia which is about 100 miles south of Mount Ararat and would be a probable location for the Valley of Nimrod. From there the Lord directed them through the wilderness to the shores of a sea where they built barges. This would be the Caspian Sea, about 170 miles east of the Valley of Nimrod. The Mediterranean Sea was west of Babel, rather than north. The Black Sea was much farther from Babel, and across the high mountains of Turkey.

A barge is generally a vessel that is pushed or pulled through the water. This indicates that they rowed or oared these vessels rather than being propelled by sail. These vessels did not have a top on them like the later vessels they built, which is evidenced by the fact that there was no concern about lighting them, ventilating them, or being able to see to steer them. They were light on the water like a fowl, peaked at both ends and were the “length of a tree” (Ether 2:16-17). This description sounds very similar to a Viking long ship without a sail.

(Ether 2:6)
“And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.”

Notice that the Jaredites crossed “many waters” in these barges, and had to be continually directed by the Lord in doing so. It is unlikely that the Lord would have the Jaredites build barges just to cross the Caspian Sea. It would have taken less time to walk around the southern end of the sea than to build vessels to cross it. An interesting thing about the Caspian Sea is that the largest and longest river in Europe empties into the north end of it. The Volga River goes from the Caspian Sea all the way through the heart of present day Russia. The likeliest scenario is that the Jaredites rowed to the north end of the Caspian Sea, and then up the full length of the Volga to its source in the Valdai Hills of Russia. That would put the Jaredites only 200 miles from the Baltic Sea.

The Jaredites stopped for four years at a place they named Moriancumer, after the name of the brother of Jared (Ether 2:13). Moriancumer was beside the great sea and near an exceedingly high mountain (Ether 3:1). To find an exceedingly high mountain beside the great sea, the Jaredites needed to travel through the Baltic Sea and around the southern tip of Norway. On the west coast of Norway at Stavanger, a major fjord leads inland to the first exceedingly high mountain, Snonuten, rising one mile high above the fjord. There are higher mountains further north that are glacier capped but there would have been no reason for the Jaredites to travel that far north along the west coast of Norway.

To get from the Volga River to the west coast of Norway they could have gone overland for 200 miles and built new ships on the Baltic Shore. However, their most likely course of action was to portage their lightweight ships for about 15 miles from the Volga River to the Western Dvina River (Daugava), which then flows into the Baltic Sea near Riga, Latvia. The Vikings portaged their Longships between these two rivers for three centuries. From the head of the Dvina they could row their vessels down the river, then through the Baltic to the western shore of the Scandinavian Peninsula.

At some time during his life the brother of Jared used the power of the priesthood to remove the mountain Zerin (Ether 12:30). There is no indication in the record as to where that mountain was or why it needed to be moved. Moses parted the Red Sea because it was an impediment to the required travel of the Children of Israel. It may be that the brother of Jared needed to move the mountain Zerin because it was blocking the path of the Jaredites from moving their barges from the Volga River to the Western Dvina River.

It is easy to understand why the Jaredites camped on the shore at Moriancumer for four years and quit talking to the Lord. What an arduous journey! Over 3,000 miles, and many years in the wilderness, and they were not there yet! In addition, they were on the shore of what the brother of Jared described to the Lord as the “raging deep” (Ether 3:3), which is an apt description of the North Atlantic. The Jaredites were probably afraid that if they spoke with the Lord He would tell them to get up and start traveling again, and to cross that raging deep. It would have taken some time for them to recuperate from their long journey, and to raise their flocks and harvest grain in preparation for the final leg of the journey.

The ships they built to cross the North Atlantic were similar to what they had previously built, except they were totally enclosed, like the fuselage of an aircraft. They had no oars, paddles, nor sails to propel them, and no rudder to steer by. They had a porthole in the hull and another in the top for ventilation. Stones, illuminated by the finger of God, gave them light (Ether 2:17-25; 6:2-3). They didn’t need to row, or sail, or steer, because they commended themselves totally to the Lord, who caused a wind to blow them always in the direction of the Promised Land (Ether 6:4-5). God was their pilot.

(Ether 6:5-11)
“And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind. And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind… And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters… And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water.”

Almost a year on the North Atlantic! Normally the prevailing winds across the North Atlantic flow from west to east. Low pressure systems coming up from the south alter this norm. These systems sometimes develop storms along the Canadian and American North Atlantic coast known as Nor’easters, because the wind is coming from the northeast. They usually result in high winds and heavy seas. It is about 3,000 miles across the North Atlantic and the average speed for the Jaredites would have been nine to ten miles per day. With no sail, and peaked at both ends, these ships would not catch a lot of wind. Moving mostly against the current of the Gulf Stream, nine or ten miles per day would have been a reasonable rate of travel in strong, steady winds.

(Ether 6:12-13)
“And they did land upon the shore of the promised land. And when they had set their feet upon the shores of the promised land they bowed themselves down upon the face of the land, and did humble themselves before the Lord, and did shed tears of joy before the Lord, because of the multitude of his tender mercies over them.
And it came to pass that they went forth upon the face of the land, and began to till the earth.”

More later on the Jaredite Landing

-Theodore

In 68 BC, a Nephite by the name of Morianton, head of the city of Morianton, attempted to conquer the people of the land of Lehi. Both cities were by the east sea in the land of Bountiful. The people of the land of Lehi fled to the camp of Moroni and plead for assistance. Morianton’s fear of Moroni caused him to take his people and “flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of this land” (Alma 50:29).

Moroni sent an army commanded by Teancum, with their supply camp, to head the people of Morianton and stop their flight into the land northward.

(Alma 50:34)
“And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.”

Alma described a narrow pass which led from the sea into the land northward, which was the land of Desolation.

From the Alabama River north there are no river valley passes through the Blue Ridge Mountains for about 600 miles. About fifty miles northwest of Washington D.C there is an unusual tectonic transect in the Blue Ridge Mountain Range that created a corridor through which the Potomac River flows to the sea. When Thomas Jefferson viewed this mountain gap from a high ridge in 1783 he wrote:

“The passage of the Patowmac [sic] through the Blue Ridge is perhaps one of the most stupendous scenes in Nature. You stand on a very high point of land. On your right comes up the Shenandoah, having ranged along the foot of the mountain a hundred miles to seek a vent. On your left approaches the Patowmac in quest of a passage also. In the moment of their junction they rush together against the mountain, rend it asunder and pass off to the sea. The first glance of this scene hurries our senses into the opinion that this earth has been created in time, that the mountains were formed first, that the rivers began to flow afterwards, that in this place particularly they have been so dammed up by the Blue Ridge of mountains as to have formed an ocean which filled the whole valley; that, continuing to rise, they have at last broken over at this spot and have torn the mountain down from its summit to its base. The piles of rock on each hand, but particularly on the Shenandoah, the evident marks of their disruptions and avulsions from their beds by the most powerful agents in nature, corroborate the impression” (Notes on the State of Virginia, published in 1785). This site is now included in Harpers Ferry National Historic Park.

The narrow pass was near a place where there was a sea on the west and a sea on the east. Fifty miles from the Potomac River Corridor through the Blue Ridge Mountains, the Potomac flows into the Atlantic across the bay from “The Peninsula,” that has a sea on the west, and a sea on the east. It would have been near here where Teancum slew Morianton, defeated his army and took them all as prisoners back to the camp of Moroni (Alma 50:35).

Two years later, in a major war with the Lamanites, Moroni sent orders to Teancum, “that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side”( Alma 52:9).

Over 400 years later the situation was somewhat reversed, as the Nephites controlled the land Desolation and the Lamanites controlled the land Bountiful.

(Mormon 2:29)
“And the Lamanites did give unto us the land northward, yea, even to the narrow passage which led into the land southward. And we did give unto the Lamanites all the land southward.”

(Mormon 3:5-6)
“5 And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.
6 And there we did place our armies, that we might stop the armies of the Lamanites, that they might not get possession of any of our lands; therefore we did fortify against them with all our force.”

This narrow pass was a strategic place at that time, and it was in our day as well. During the American Civil War this pass was on the boundary between the Confederate and the Union Forces. Control of the pass changed hands eight times during the course of the war.

More later on the Journey of the Jaredites and the Jaredite Landing

-Theodore

South Boundary of the Land Bountiful:

When Ammon explained to the people of Zarahemla about the people of Anti-Lehi-Nephi, the voice of the people came saying:

(Alma 27:22)
“Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful…”

This places Jershon and Bountiful east of the land of Zarahemla. It also informs us that the land of Jershon joined the land of Bountiful, by the sea which was on the south of the Land Bountiful. This is good information because the Land of Bountiful bordered on two seas—one was the East Sea and the other was the West Sea.

(Alma 22:33)
“And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea…”

East of the river Sidon and Zarahemla, these two seas can only be the Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Ocean. The Gulf would be the West Sea and the Atlantic the East Sea. Residents of Florida today also refer to the east sea and the west sea.

(Alma 22:33)
“And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.”

Therefore, the south boundary of the land of Bountiful went from Jershon on the Gulf of Mexico, east to the Atlantic Ocean, hemming the Lamanites in Florida (Jershon location considered later).

East Boundary of the Land Bountiful:

The east boundary of the Land Bountiful must therefore be the Atlantic Ocean, running north from Florida. This is confirmed by several Nephite cities being built by the east sea towards the north.

(Alma 50:13)

“And it came to pass that the Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by the east sea; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites.”

Some years later Lamanite King Amalickiah captured the city of Moroni and then marched north.

Alma 51:26)
“And thus he went on, taking possession of many cities, the city of Nephihah, and the city of Lehi, and the city of Morianton, and the city of Omner, and the city of Gid, and the city of Mulek, all of which were on the east borders by the seashore.”

West Boundary of the Land of Bountiful:

The sea south of the land Bountiful is the Gulf Coast west of Tallahassee, along the Florida Panhandle to the west. Just west of the Panhandle, above Mobile Bay, Alabama, is the ancient mound complex at Bottle Creek. This is a very large archeological site, with eighteen mounds, located in the Mobile-Tensaw River Delta and is a probable site for the city of Jershon. The Tensaw/Alabama River runs from there northeast to the Blue Ridge Mountain Range, which runs parallel to the Atlantic seacoast for another 700 miles to the Susquehanna River.

Rivers and mountain ranges are natural borders so it is probable that the western border of the land Bountiful is the Tensaw/Alabama River and the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Northern Boundary of the Land Bountiful:

We learn the location of the northern boundary from Mormon’s commentary when he wrote the following:

(Alma 22:30)

“And it [Bountiful] bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their [the Jaredites] first landing.”

The north-south border between Bountiful and Desolation was by the narrow neck of land, “where the sea divides the land.” The following are the only two references to “the narrow neck of land.”

(Alma 63:5)
“And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.”

(Ether 10:20)
“And they [the Jaredites] built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.”

On the eastern seaboard, Chesapeake Bay divides the land for 170 miles. At the head of the bay is a 20 mile wide narrow neck of land that separates it from Delaware Bay on the east. This narrow neck of land is the Delmarva Peninsula, shared by the three states of Delaware, Maryland and Virginia. It is known locally simply as “The Peninsula.” The Susquehanna River flows from around the north end of the Blue Ridge Mountains and into Chesapeake Bay at the top of the narrow neck of land. The Susquehanna River would therefore mark the north/south boundary between the land of Bountiful and the land of Desolation. Hagoth launched his ships into the sea on the west side of this narrow neck of land.

The Land of Bountiful was therefore all of the Atlantic coastal plain east of the Blue Ridge Mountains from Florida to the Susquehanna River,. This outlines a territory about 800 miles long and 250 miles wide, roughly the size of the Mexican province of California in 1846.

More later on the Narrow Pass

-Theodore

You probably missed my post of September 14 at 2:43, so I will repost it.

Consider the following:

A. Zarahemla is on the west side of the river Sidon across the river from Gideon.

(Alma 6:7) …Alma…departed from…the city of Zarahemla, and went over upon the east of the river Sidon, into the valley of Gideon, there having been a city built, which was called the city of Gideon…

B. Manti is south of Gideon and Zarahemla

(Alma 17:1) And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.

C. Manti is on the west side of the river Sidon

(Alma 43:32) And the remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti.

CONCLUSION #1. The river Sidon runs north and south between Zarahemla and Manti

Then consider the following:

(Alma 22:27) …a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west…

From the above we find:

A. The narrow strip of wilderness runs east and west round about on the edge of the seashore

B. Manti is near the narrow strip of wilderness, that is by the sea

C. The head of the river Sidon is by the narrow strip of wilderness, that is by the sea

CONCLUSION #2. As rivers run to the sea, the river Sidon runs from Zarahemla south to Manti, and through the east/west narrow strip of wilderness to the “head of the river Sidon” near the sea.

Consider the next post regarding the “narrow neck of land.”

-Theodore

When Nephi and those that went with him left the land of their first inheritance to escape persecution, the record simply states that they journeyed in the wilderness for many days, and called the place where they settled, Nephi (2 Nephi 5:7-8). Nephi told us that the land was fertile and there was an abundance of iron, copper, gold and silver ores. They also worked with brass, which is an alloy of copper and zinc, so there would have been zinc deposits as well. To find all of these minerals within a reasonable proximity Nephi needed to travel north to what is now central Guatemala, just south of Mexico (USGS Minerals Information, Guatemala). This would have been a distance of about five hundred miles. Through that terrain it would have required thirty to forty days travel time, which is consistent with Nephi’s statement that they journeyed many days.

(2 Nephi 5:15)
“15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.”

Nephi does not mention building with stone but with all manner of wood and metals. That may not exclude stone but it was not a major material worth mentioning in his list.

Within ten or fifteen years the Lamanites had found where the Nephites had settled, and the wars between them began (2 Nephi 5:34). Two hundred years after Lehi left Jerusalem, Jarom records that the wars had continued and that the Nephites and the Lamanites were scattered upon much of the face of the land.

(Jarom 1:5-6,
“5 And now, behold, two hundred years had passed away, and the people of Nephi had waxed strong in the land…
6 And they were scattered upon much of the face of the land, and the Lamanites also. And they were exceedingly more numerous than were they of the Nephites…
8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war–yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.”

The Nephites had multiplied exceedingly and the Lamanites even more so. They were scattered and spread upon much of the face of the land and obviously had a thriving civilization in Mesoamerica. The text does not indicate what “much of the face of the land” means but having traveled “many days” to get away from the Lamanites the first time it is probable that this civilization was scattered throughout much of Mesoamerica and into Mexico, and may not have been concentrated in any one place.

By 280 BC the more wicked part of the Nephites had been destroyed, but the record does not indicate where the survivors among them were living at that time (Omni 1:4-7). In wars where one side is losing badly the survivors are those who flee the battle zone. In ancient wars the prime goal of the attacker is to capture the enemy cities and especially the central or capital city. Surely the Nephites would have been driven from their original city of Nephi. It appears that the Lamanites kept pushing the Nephites further north.

With the passage of another hundred years the more righteous Nephites were living in a city called Lehi-Nephi (Mosiah 7:1). The name “Lehi-Nephi” was first used by King Mosiah 2nd in expressing his desire to find out what happened to the people of Zeniff who had returned to that city. This would therefore have been the name that the city was known by when the Nephites had left it in the days of King Mosiah’s grandfather, King Mosiah 1st. Early in his record Zeniff stops using the name “Lehi-Nephi” and the city was referred to thereafter simply by the name “Nephi,” not to be confused with the original city of Nephi in Mesoamerica from which the Nephites would have been driven generations earlier.

Under the leadership of King Mosiah 1st they were warned by the Lord to flee again. Mosiah led his people as Brigham Young 2,000 years later led the Latter-Day Saints out of Nauvoo and across the plains (Omni 1:12-13). Mosiah and his people would have traveled about 600 miles to the river Sidon and Zarahemla (see post above, September 12 at 2:12 pm). This places the city of Lehi-Nephi on the Rio Grande of Mexico/Texas.

There are no further details in the text about events in Mesoamerica. Subsequent to the coming of Christ all of the people in all of the land were converted to the Gospel and lived the fullness of law of consecration for at least 165 years. This would have occurred in Mesoamerica as well as in the Land of Zarahemla and Bountiful and Desolation. What kind of civilization developed there afterwards, or who else then came into the land of Mesoamerica we can only surmise from the archaeological remains. What is evident is that vestiges of the Lamanite and Nephite cultures are still found in Mesoamerica.

More later on the Land Bountiful

-Theodore

In his description of their arrival at the Promised Land, Nephi wrote that their seeds grew exceedingly and they were blessed with abundance. He described beasts in the forests of every kind, and all manner of wild animals. Nephi wrote that they found all manner of ore, both of gold, and silver, and of copper (1 Nephi 18:23-25). It was certainly a blessed land. From this brief description we learn that the soil was fertile and they had abundant rainfall. There were forests, and also grassy areas to feed the cow and the ass and the horse.

This wonderful land was located on the west in the Land of Nephi, on the seacoast, so it would be somewhere along the Pacific coast (Alma 22:28). The Panama land-bridge between North and South America is almost impenetrable. The 16,000 mile Pan American Highway that runs from Prudhoe Bay on the Arctic Ocean to the southern tip of Argentina, has only one break—the fifty-four mile gap through the Darien Jungle between Panama City, Panama, and Columbia, South America. Modern equipment and engineering have not been able to built a road through this jungle. In 1854 an American Expedition searching for a route for the Panama Canal could not hack their way through this jungle. They became so lost and hungry in this forty mile wide isthmus that they ate their dead (LA Times, March 18, 2005). If Lehi had landed in South America, it is highly unlikely that the Nephites could have migrated to North America by land.

The first thing to look for in searching for this location is the ore deposits. US Geological Survey maps show that from Mexico to Panama there is only one spot on the Pacific coast where there are known deposits of gold, silver and copper, all within a radius of thirty miles of a coastal point (USGS Minerals Information). That point is the middle of the Pacific coastline of Costa Rica.

When Columbus came to this area he saw people wearing many ornaments of gold, and so named it Cost Rica (Rich Coast). Costa Rica is rich in many other ways. It has all the other features Nephi described. Costa Rica has fertile soil and 150 inches of rainfall per year. Fruit trees such as avocado, nance and guapinol, as well as tubers such as yucca and “name,” are indigenous to Costa Rica (Costa Rica Agriculture). Today the rich soils produce bananas, pineapple, oranges, nuts, coconuts, yams, and a long list of exotic fruits and vegetables.

The almond tree is indigenous to the Levant of the Middle East (Wikipedia, Almond), and is mentioned ten times in the Old Testament. However, the almond is also considered to be native to Costa Rica (Native Trees of Costa Rica). Lehi’s family brought many fruit and grain seeds and planted them in the Promised Land (1 Nephi 8:1, 18:24) and perhaps the almond and other fruits and grains still growing in Costa Rica were among the varieties brought by Lehi. Future botanical studies may provide additional supporting evidence.

Twenty five percent of Costa Rica is protected forests and reserves. The Monteverde Cloud Forest Reserve has two thousand plant species with various orchids, and a hundred species of wild animals. There are eight hundred species of birds in Costa Rica. Nephi’s description of all manner of wild animals still holds true today.

The most probable point for Lehi and his family to land would have been on the lush costal strip where the fresh water of the River Grande flows into the Gulf of Nicoya, near the present town of Tárcoles. When Lehi left Jerusalem, the first place he camped was beside a river of fresh water where it emptied into the Red Sea. He named the river, Laman, and admonished this son to be “like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!” (1 Nephi 2:6-9).

The place Lehi sailed from was a fruitful valley near the sea they called Bountiful (1 Nephi 17:5-6). When Lehi landed in the Promised Land he surely would have settled his family along a fresh water river, not far from the sea. They may have sailed a short distance up the River Grande and found a good settlement site on the rich flat soil on the north bank of the river.

After eight years in the desert, and traveling more than half way around the world by sea, the tropical paradise of Costa Rica would have been an unimaginable fulfillment of the promised blessing to Lehi and his family.

More later on Mesoamerica.

-Theodore

Whether or not you agree with the traditional interpretation of “exceedingly great distance” or not, and notwithstanding your examples which seem to be easily used in support of “exceeding” as “exceeding”, you simply cannot dispute the plausibility of the reading of that phrase being precisely to the contrary of your reading of the text. We are left once again to your interpretation versus the traditional interpretation, and your reasons for favoring your interpretation versus someone else’s. Just because you see plausibility in your own doesn’t take away from the plausibility of mine, and that is what I have been seeking from you people is the admission of your own lack of ability to declare that something is precise and your overconfidence in your ability to pronounce the likelihood in your own favor of how that phrase should be interpreted, when the obvious interpretation of the phrase is perfectly plausible and favored by Occam’s razor. The only reason you favor your interpretation so much is to read Mesoamerica into it. Otherwise you wouldn’t be trying so hard to apply some kind of games with the phrase. And if you dispute what I’m saying here, then it manifests your lack of enthusiasm for admitting plausibility to something contrary to what you favor.

**It is not unreasonable to suppose that a foot journey of three or four hundred miles (neglecting terrain-imposed detours) would be called an exceeding great distance, particularly when undertaken by a mixed group of migrants with flocks.**

The 22 day journey from Lehi-Nephi to Zarahemla was never classified as exceedingly great. A journey of 300 miles with flocks & herds might easily be done in 15 days.

**Limhi’s explorers, traveling without flocks or children, would be guided by oral traditions that gave a reasonable idea of the direction they should travel and a travel time estimate measured in days. However, I find it unreasonable to suppose that after a one-way foot journey of four to seven thousand miles**

First, Zeniff’s group wandered in the wilderness for “many days” so even if the number of days was handed down by oral tradition the scouts of Limhi would have thought that it was farther than it really was. Assuming the river Sidon was the Mississippi, the scouts must have come to the banks of the River above Zarahemla, built dugout canoes or a sailing raft and continued upstream. The distance from Lehi-Nephi to the Mississippi river is about 600 miles (see above). After they had gone only another 250 miles upstream they were into the central plains at the fork of the Ohio River. By then they would have been finding the death and destruction of the Jaredites and they assumed that it was the people of Zarahemla (Mosiah 21:25-26). They would have continued to follow the trail of death upstream looking for survivors. King Limhi referred to the scouts as being “diligent” even though they did not find Zarahemla (Mosiah 8:8).

Second, they were being led by the Lord to pick up the 24 gold plates of Ether. Ether set the plates in the place where the Lord would bring the scouts of Limhi (Ether 15:33). The Book of Ether gave the Nephites a record of the people who came before them and was another testament to them of Jesus Christ. The Book of Ether was to the Nephites what The Book Of Mormon is to us (Mosiah 28:17-19; Alma 37:21, 29-30). The long trip of the scouts of Limhi was a small price for them to pay for the Book of Ether.

-Theodore

“Never does the word exceeding appear to describe the order of magnitude that Vogel’s reading demands but rather that a circumstance exceeds normal measures or efforts.144 It is not unreasonable to suppose that a foot journey of three or four hundred miles (neglecting terrain-imposed detours) would be called an exceeding great distance, particularly when undertaken by a mixed group of migrants with flocks (see Helaman 3:3—4). Limhi’s explorers, traveling without flocks or children, would be guided by oral traditions that gave a reasonable idea of the direction they should travel and a travel time estimate measured in days. However, I find it unreasonable to suppose that after a one-way foot journey of four to seven thousand miles—and the repeated changes of direction and climate that Vogel’s reading requires—Limhi’s party would mistake the Jaredite ruins for Zarahemla in the south (Mosiah 21:26).”

My note 144:

“Other uses of exceeding do not exhibit either the precision or the orders of magnitude that Vogel requires: “And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young” (1 Nephi 2:16). “And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property [carried in by Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam], and that it was exceedingly great” (1 Nephi 3:25). “They came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrists, and behold they had swollen exceedingly” (1 Nephi 18:15). “And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains” (2 Nephi 4:25). “Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites” (Alma 44:21). Also, “They had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height” (Alma 53:4). Compare, “And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities” (Alma 50:2). How high must the earth and timbers be? Also compare, “And it came to pass that the brother of Jared . . . went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height” (Ether 3:1). How high must the mountain be?”

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

In my post above of September 12 I stated, “At 30 miles a day for 22 days Alma’s company would travel approximately 600 miles. This is just the distance from the Mississippi to the Rio Grande, across the great wilderness of the plains of Texas.”

The Rio Grande would have been a natural border for the land of Nephi at that time. Separating the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla was the huge southern plain of Texas. During the Nephite period this area of Texas was a grassy savannah rather than the mesquite and brush we see today. It is easy to understand how the Nephites kept getting lost on this vast ocean of grass with few landmarks.

Around 500 BC West and Southwest Texas underwent a notable cooling that encouraged the southward expansion of the lush grasslands of the Southern High Plains. This expansion reached the Rio Grande and was widespread enough to encourage large herds of bison to range freely as far south and east as Langtry and Del Rio. (Paleoenvironments, The Handbook of Texas Online)

There are five groups recorded in The Book Of Mormon who got lost in this vast Texas prairie. Zeniff wandered for many days trying to find the city of Lehi-Nephi (Mosiah 9:4); Ammon wandered for forty days in this wilderness for the same purpose (Mosiah 7:5); the scouts of Limhi going the other way looking for Zarahemla couldn’t find it (Mosiah 8:8); the Lamanite army pursuing the people of Limhi got lost and wandered many days (Mosiah 22:16, 23:30); and Amulon and the priests of Noah didn’t know where they were from the city of Lehi-Nephi (23:35-36).

Navigating over this sea of grass would have been like sailing on an ocean without a compass, sextant, or Liahona. When they came to the top of a hill, all they would have seen on the horizon were other hills of grass, like waves on the sea. If they were only twenty degrees off course, after two hundred miles they would miss their destination by sixty miles.

The plains of Texas appear to fit the text describing the wilderness between the Land of Nephi and the Land of Zarahemla.

More later on Lehi’s landing and how Mesoamerica fits into the text of the Book of Mormon.

-Theodore

WATERS OF MORMON

Alma fled from King Noah and hid out at the waters of Mormon which was in the “borders of the land” (Mosiah 18:4-5). Converts gathered to this place to be baptized and to hear Alma preach. It was therefore probably not more than a day’s journey from the city of Nephi. The waters of Mormon were fed by a “fountain of pure water,” which would be a spring rather than a river or creek.

Alma wrote that at “certain seasons” the area was infested with wild beasts. These “certain seasons” would be seasons of drought, when other watering places dried up. This would certainly be consistent with the climate of the southern plains of Texas. This spring was surrounded by a “thicket of small trees” that was large enough to conceal the activities of four hundred and fifty people (Mosiah 18:35).

Thirty miles east of the Rio Grande, from a point about halfway between Del Rio and Laredo, is a town called Carrizo Springs. The town was named after a large spring surrounded by a thicket of carrizo (Spanish for reeds). These plants were the native giant switchcane (Arundinaria gigantean—Dr. Lynn G. Clark, Iowa State University, personal correspondence with author). This is a leafy bamboo-like plant that grows twenty to thirty feet high with stems up to one and one-half inches thick. This would certainly match Alma’s description of a “thicket of small trees,” and notice that he didn’t say “young trees.” These would have been a small variety of tree, or a large cane or bamboo. As cane and bamboo grow from rhizomes on the roots this creates a “thicket.”

The Carrizo Springs were actually a line of springs stretching for about six miles. There were deep fish-filled pools, and a waterfall, which was a favorite “bathing” spot on Mrs. Bill Johnson’s Ranch in the 1920’s. This would also have been a wonderful baptismal spot (Gunnar Brune, Springs of Texas, Vol. 1, Texas A&M University Press, p. 165-166).

The archeological sites of many Indian villages have been found there. Unfortunately, the water table of the aquifer was lowered by extensive pumping. During the drought of the 1950’s the spring dried, and the cane thickets around it died (Ibid.).

In 1718 Martin de Alarcon, founder of San Antonio, described El Carrizo as being a very lovely place” (Ibid.). Alma wrote that the place was beautiful “to the eyes of them who there came to a knowledge of their redeemer” (Mosiah 18:30).

The Carrizo Springs appear to fit the location and the description of the waters of Mormon.

-Theodore

-Theodore

Your statements are essentially correct but your conclusions are wrong because you left out the next two verses:

(Alma 22:29)
28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.

29 And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

This covers all of Mexico, Mesoamerica and Florida. Plenty of room for the Lamanites in that territory.

-Theodore

1. The land of the Lamanite King stretched from the sea east to the sea west. The lamanites were always greater in number than the Nephites so this must have been a rather large area.

“and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west,

2. The Narrow Strip of Wilderness divides the Land of the Lamanites from the Land of Zarahemla and also stretches from the sea east to the sea west.

“and round about on the borders of the seashore,and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla”

3. The Narrow Strip of Wilderness extends along the borders of the seashore.

4. The borders of the wilderness were on the North of the Lamanite lands by the Land of Zarahemla.
In other words Zarahemla was north of the Strip of Wildernes which in turn was north of the Land of the Lamanites.

“, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.”

5. This wilderness area seperated the two cultures along an east west oriented barrier.

If as you suggest the Narrow strip was located along a southern seashore near the mouth of the river Sidon and the mouth (head was in this strip along the seashore this would place the land of the Lamanites in the Gulf of Mexico south of the Mouth of the river Mississippi or on the delta itself.

I dont think so. The land of the Lamanites was much to big to fit in such a small area.

Larry P

A. Zarahemla is on the west side of the river Sidon across the river from Gideon.
(Alma 6:7) …Alma…departed from…the city of Zarahemla, and went over upon the east of the river Sidon, into the valley of Gideon, there having been a city built, which was called the city of Gideon…

B. Manti is south of Gideon and Zarahemla
(Alma 17:1) And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.

C. Manti is on the west side of the river Sidon
(Alma 43:32) And the remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti.

CONCLUSION #1. The river Sidon runs north and south between Zarahemla and Manti

Then consider the following:

(Alma 22:27) …a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west…

From the above we find:

A. The narrow strip of wilderness runs east and west round about on the edge of the seashore

B. Manti is near the narrow strip of wilderness, that is by the sea

C. The head of the river Sidon is by the narrow strip of wilderness, that is by the sea

CONCLUSION #2. As rivers run to the sea, the river Sidon runs from Zarahemla south to Manti, and through the east/west narrow strip of wilderness to the “head of the river Sidon” near the sea.

-Theodore

**If the words of the original writers had different meanings then I would suppose that the translator would have been inspired to make that clear by using different words and not require the reader to search for obscure less frequently used meanings.**

Possibly, but the correlation between the text and the facts on the ground indicate otherwise.

There is also another possibility. It seems that the Lord had the geographic information written cryptically so that we would not discover the sacred sites until such time they would be protected. Hundreds of Ancient American archaeological sites in the US have been destroyed by development and vandalism. It is only recently that laws have been put in place to protect them. Under previous conditions any site identified as possible evidence for the Book of Mormon would have been a prime target for destruction.

-Theodore

Larry P

A slight correction from what I wrote above:

It was Mormon who used the term “head of the river Sidon” not Alma. This was 900 years after Nephi wrote about the head of the fountain. Mormon did not write 1 Nephi, he just inserted into his record. So, there is no need to suppose that there would be continuity in the use of terms between Nephi’s writing and Mormon’s.

-Theodore

**Given that the BofM was translated by the gift and power of God, I find it inconsistant that Joseph would have been inspired to use this word to describe the source of one river in Nephi’s vision as a “Fountain of Living Waters” and the delta or mouth of the River Sidon in the second instance. To me this type of argument denies the participation of the Holy Ghost in the process of translation.
To me the definition of “head” should be consistant and I doubt that one would describe the “Fountain of Many Waters, the Love of God” as a mouth or river delta.**

This is a very good point. There is no question that Lehi was referring to the headwaters of the fountain. However, it is Alma that speaks about the “head of the river Sidon” 500 years later. He could certainly us a similar expression to convey a different meaning. It’s true that both authors were translated by the power of God but I don’t think God would necessarily change the words of one prophet to avoid confusion with those of another 500 years earlier. As you well know each author in the Book of Mormon has his own distinct style of writing that comes through the translation intact.

The best evidence for the correct interpretation of the phrase, “head of the river Sidon” is to test its validity on the map of America. This is what my thesis is all about—testing this theory to see if it works—and it does.

The first thing I did after coming up with the theory of Sidon Head was to search for a substantial archaeological site on the west side of the Mississippi within 200-300 miles of the Gulf. Bingo! There it was! The marvelous site at Poverty Point that still has a 50 foot tower at the west end of the temple mound. This process went on and on. Every time I looked for a site or a landmark described in the text, there it was.

Rather than base you opinion of the theory on the perceived meaning of the word “head,” I would suggest that you test the theory by checking the text against the facts on the ground as I have in the thesis.

-Theodore

The first use is in Nephi’s description of his vision of the Tree of Life.

1 Ne. 8:
14 And I looked to behold from whence it came; and I saw the head thereof a little way off; and at the head thereof I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi; and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go.

The second place is in Alma where it is used to describe the River Sidon in the narrow strip of wilderness.

Alma 22: 27
27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

In the first case Nephi goes on to describe this head as a fountain.

1 Ne. 11: 25
25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.

Given that the BofM was translated by the gift and power of God, I find it inconsistant that Joseph would have been inspired to use this word to describe the source of one river in Nephi’s vision as a “Fountain of Living Waters” and the delta or mouth of the River Sidon in the second instance. To me this type of argument denies the participation of the Holy Ghost in the process of translation.

To me the definition of “head” should be consistant and I doubt that one would describe the “Fountain of Many Waters, the Love of God” as a mouth or river delta.

Larry P

“…and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore,…”

Without real world geography who knows what, “and round about on the borders of the seashore,” means?

I presume it means that the strip of wilderness reaches from sea to sea, and then extends along the seashore, in a type of encircling tendency. Larry P, Sorenson, and others have provided plausible diagrams of the same.

Again, I think that you’ve allowed your choice of site to influence your reading in a way that the text doesn’t really support–but, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Your diagram above is a prefect example of where the mapping can lead you astray without real world geography. Notice the description of the narrow strip in the following verse:

Alma 22:7
“…and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore,…”

Without real world geography who knows what, “and round about on the borders of the seashore,” means? But if the sea west is the Gulf of Mexico and the sea east is the Atlantic Ocean then the meaning of this phrase becomes clear. From the Panhandle of Florida the Gulf of Mexico curves around to the southwest so this narrow strip of wilderness curves “round about” with it.

Then if the Land of Nephi is Mexico and Mesoamerica it is definitely south of the land of Zarahemla but does not have to straight south of Zarahemla/Manti. Larry Poulsen’s presentation at the FAIR conference on the subject of Book of Mormon directions is classic! (http://poulsenll.org/bom/bomdirections.html ). Larry suggests that the Nephite directions east and west are only 50 degrees wide and north and south are 130 degrees wide each. This fits well with my geographic studies.

**There are several things on quick inspection that didn’t work for me (e.g., the distance from Bountiful to the narrow pass and narrow neck strikes me as FAR too far, and the layout doesn’t make tactical military sense to me at all), but if we cannot agree on a simple matter like the “head,” of the Sidon then I suspect that anything I said about those other matters would risk being offensive without producing much light. **

OK. Now we can get into distances. I’m not that easily offended.

As a boy, I helped my father move sheep and cattle between two ranches that were twenty miles apart, which we always did in a day. Alma, moving from the Waters of Mormon towards Zarahemla was traveling with children and flocks but they were fleeing for their lives. “The Lord did strengthen them that the people of King Noah did not overtake them to destroy them” (Mosiah 23:2). Joseph Smith, leading Zion’s Camp, made twenty-five to forty miles a day (LDS Church, Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 287). There is a book by Don Rickey about US enlisted soldiers during the Indian Wars. It is entitled, Forty Miles a Day on Beans and Hay. Assuming normal terrain (and there is no mention of mountains) the pursuers of Alma’s band could have done forty miles a day, but since Alma had a head start his group would not need to travel that fast. It would seem that fleeing for their lives, with the Lord’s help, thirty miles a day would be a reasonable distance for Alma’s group to travel.

Step on your treadmill at the gym or at home and see how comfortable a walk 3 mph is. Agrarian people could keep up that pace all day. When pushed one could do it from sun up to sun down. Walking 2.5 mph for 12 hours will get them 30 miles. Little children would be carried in chariots or ride on beasts of burden.

At 30 miles a day for 22 days Alma’s company would travel approximately 600 miles. This is just the distance from the Mississippi to the Rio Grande, across the great wilderness of the plains of Texas.

-Theodore

Except William did not name it “Hilton’s Headland,” he named it “Hilton Head.”

Hmm. The source I provided suggested he did name it “Hilton Headland.” In either case, though, for this to help your argument, wouldn’t it have to be “Name of the River” Head, though? Hilton named it after himself, not the river.

You’re grasping at straws. Large rivers don’t begin on promontories near the sea—a few springs and streams perhaps but not significant rivers.

I’m not suggesting that the narrow strip is on a “promontory.”

I see “narrow” as a description of the distance between the northside of the strip (Manti-direction) and the southside of the strip (land of Nephi direction.) This is the distance that would matter to travelers. There is never a discussion of east/west travel that I know of; it’s all a question of having to cross it to get to Zarahemla from Nephi, or vice-versa.

The strip stretches from east sea to west sea (Alma 22:27), and that distance can be large or small as one prefers, I suspect. So, what I’m picturing is a narrow (in the N/S direction) strip of elevated terrain:

[TO Manti]

[Sea W] |
[Sea W] |———————–y————————> [to Sea East at far right]
[Sea W] X
[Sea W] |
[Sea W] |

[To Nephi]

Thus, the “narrow” part is direction “x.” The width is direction “y,” which can be of any dimension one likes. The height increase is in the north south direction, creating a drainage basin toward the north (and, likely toward the south also, though we don’t hear about that).

I looked through your thesis packet. It is a beautifully formatted and presented document, and obviously represents what I expect is months or years of hard work and thought.

There are several things on quick inspection that didn’t work for me (e.g., the distance from Bountiful to the narrow pass and narrow neck strikes me as FAR too far, and the layout doesn’t make tactical military sense to me at all), but if we cannot agree on a simple matter like the “head,” of the Sidon then I suspect that anything I said about those other matters would risk being offensive without producing much light.

**Oops, forgot–remember, it is called the head of the SIDON, not the head of some land. (Your Hilton Head Island example doesn’t seem relevant–it’s the name of the island or the promontory, not the river.)**

A large river like the Mississippi creates a headland over time where the silt is deposited into the sea. We usually refer to it as a delta but it can also be called a “head.” So instead of the “delta of the river Sidon” the Book of Mormon refers to it as the “head of the river Sidon.”

**To use your example:In 1663, the abundant, untamed island was surveyed by William Hilton, an English sea captain, sailing from Barbados in search of tropical lands on which to establish profitable English plantations. Hilton then claimed it for the British crown, establishing the legacy with his own name…Hilton’s Headland.**

Except William did not name it “Hilton’s Headland,” he named it “Hilton Head.”

**So, the island is named as a “headland,” part of the river isn’t named “the head” just because it’s by the river.**

The “head of the river Sidon” isn’t referring to the water it is referring to the headland around the water. It is the head created by the river Sidon, so what else would you call it?

**As Webster’s 1828 edition has it: HEADLAND, n. hed’land. A cape; a promontory; a point of land projecting from the shore into the sea, or other expanse of water.**

With all due respect and appreciation to Noah Webster for his wonderful 70,000 word first dictionary it was far from complete. He did not include the above definition under the entry “head” as subsequent editions did. But as you can see in my example above, the word “head” was being used in place of “headland” at least as far back as 1663. The town of Nags Head, NC, was so named in 1830, two years after Noah published his first edition. Around the coasts of Ireland there are about 50 promontories that are named “Head.”

**Are there any examples of calling a river the “head” near its exit into the sea? (I.E., cases where the “mouth” is really the “head”? Again, this strikes me as terribly idiosyncratic, and certainly not supported by (say) Webster 1828).**

Not that I am aware of. However, the only other river in English speaking countries that has created a headland from its silt deposits that I can think of, is the Mackenzie in Northern Canada. It flows into the Arctic Ocean and its delta was named Richard’s Island after an explorer. The “Big Muddy” is kind of unique in America.

**This doesn’t follow. High land can be near the sea with no gradual slope downward. I don’t argue with the fact that the narrow strip of wilderness is near the sea. But, it does not follow that the narrow strip and Sidon head is therefore of low elevation. (For example, there could be two high ridges on either side of the strip, near seas–cliffs, if you will. The narrow strip (also high) could be between them, with a drainage parallel to the cliffs and the seas.) So, being near the sea isn’t enough–you need to demonstrate that this area was LOW (there is, after all, seas also near your higher elevation area from whence springs the south-bound Sidon.)**

You’re grasping at straws. Large rivers don’t begin on promontories near the sea—a few springs and streams perhaps but not significant rivers.

**Anyone going south tends to go east first (to Gideon) and then south to Manti, and crossing the narrow strip. Why do you presume that going “up” into the wilderness from Zarahemla means going west? That doesn’t seem to make geographic or textual sense….people can go south, and often do go south. In your model, that way is downhill. So, why go to the work of going UP into a wilderness?**

Straight south from Zarahemla takes one to Manti, then the narrow strip of wilderness and then to the sea. Therefore the land of Nephi cannot be straight south, one must go west and south. In the first recorded battle in the Land of Zarahemla the Nephites drove the Lamanites west and north into the Wilderness of Hermounts (Alma 2:37)
There are several texts that refer to the Lamanites and a wilderness being west of Zarahemla.

Alma 8:3
3 And it came to pass in the commencement of the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, that Alma departed from thence and took his journey over into the land of Melek, on the west of the river Sidon, on the west by the borders of the wilderness.

Alma 22:28
28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla…

-Theodore

The river Sidon does enter Desolation but not through Bountiful nor the narrow neck.

But, isn’t Desolation north of Bountiful? (Alma 22:30-32)

And, isn’t Zarahemla south of Bountiful? (Alma 22:29)

And, don’t these touch? (3 Nephi 3:23)

So, how does the river get from Zarahemla, to Desolation, but never touch Bountiful?

I’m confused. I see you’ve put up a download, so I’ll puzzle over that….

Exactly. They [Zeniffites] went up out of the river Sidon lowlands of Zarahemla into the wilderness hills on the west.

So, they’re headed to Nephi (south) so they head west instead?

Why not head DOWNhill (in your model) toward Manti and Nephi? What good does going west go?

Anyone going south tends to go east first (to Gideon) and then south to Manti, and crossing the narrow strip. Why do you presume that going “up” into the wilderness from Zarahemla means going west? That doesn’t seem to make geographic or textual sense….people can go south, and often do go south. In your model, that way is downhill. So, why go to the work of going UP into a wilderness?

The word “head” has a different meaning when it relates to lands by the sea.

Oops, forgot–remember, it is called the head of the SIDON, not the head of some land. (Your Hilton Head Island example doesn’t seem relevant–it’s the name of the island or the promontory, not the river.)

To use your example:

In 1663, the abundant, untamed island was surveyed by William Hilton, an English sea captain, sailing from Barbados in search of tropical lands on which to establish profitable English plantations. Hilton then claimed it for the British crown, establishing the legacy with his own name…Hilton’s Headland.

So, the island is named as a “headland,” part of the river isn’t named “the head” just because it’s by the river.

As Webster’s 1828 edition has it:

HEADLAND, n. hed’land. A cape; a promontory; a point of land projecting from the shore into the sea, or other expanse of water.

Are there any examples of calling a river the “head” near its exit into the sea? (I.E., cases where the “mouth” is really the “head”? Again, this strikes me as terribly idiosyncratic, and certainly not supported by (say) Webster 1828).

It’s the “head of the river Sidon,” not the “head of the land of Sidon,” or something like that.

Therefore the head of the river Sidon cannot be the “headwaters” of the river which would be far away from the sea and in the highlands

This doesn’t follow. High land can be near the sea with no gradual slope downward. I don’t argue with the fact that the narrow strip of wilderness is near the sea. But, it does not follow that the narrow strip and Sidon head is therefore of low elevation.

(For example, there could be two high ridges on either side of the strip, near seas–cliffs, if you will. The narrow strip (also high) could be between them, with a drainage parallel to the cliffs and the seas.)

So, being near the sea isn’t enough–you need to demonstrate that this area was LOW (there is, after all, seas also near your higher elevation area from whence springs the south-bound Sidon.)

Slight correction in #4 above:

The river Sidon does enter Desolation but not through Bountiful nor the narrow neck.

-Theodore

**Yes, I know this is your argument. But I think this argument is circular, because I can see no reason for presuming that the “head” and “narrow strip of wilderness” is lower than the surrounding areas. There are lots that really make it sound higher:

There is a narrow strip of wilderness south between Manti and the sea which is in low country, but this is only a small part of the wilderness. The majority of the wilderness both west and east as where the land rises away from the lowlands on both sides of the Sidon valley.
“Behold, the Lamanites will cross the river Sidon in the south wilderness, away up beyond the borders of the land of Manti. (Alma 16:6)**

Across the river Sidon from the land of Manti to the east the land rises sharply and is quite hilly.

** remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti. (Alma 43:32) Here it sounds like Manti is DOWN from the Sidon ford where the battle takes place (which makes sense if Manti is near the headwaters; how do we have something downhill from the Sidon at the point where it is about to enter the sea? Maybe I need a visual to show me what you’re thinking) **

This is the same terrain as the item above. The previous verse shows that there was the hill Riplah on the east of the river. One comes down out of the hills into the borders of the land Manti which is just across the river in the flat country.

** 27 And now I would speak somewhat concerning a certain number who went up into the wilderness to return to the land of Nephi; for there was a large number who were desirous to possess the land of their inheritance. Wherefore, they went up into the wilderness. (Omni 1:27 – 28)**

Exactly. They went up out of the river Sidon lowlands of Zarahemla into the wilderness hills on the west.

** I have brought this my people [Zeniffites, from Zarahemla] up into this land, that they may destroy them; yea, and we have suffered these many years in the land [of Nephi]. (Mosiah 10:18)**

Same as above. One always travels up out of the Sidon valley of Zarahemla to where ever because Zarahemla was in the lowlands, and not far from the sea.

**There’s also a battle on foot up near Manti; sounds more like a headwaters sort of place than a large river running into a sea.**

I think you are referring to the battle of the Hill Riplah above, where Zerahemnah got scalped. Notice in Alma 43:35 that Lehi didn’t hit them from behind until they started crossing the river. Crossing a big river with a large army didn’t happen in an hour or two. Lehi really caught them when they were vulnerable.

1.So, just to be clear, your map says:

1) there is more than one land route from Zarahemla to the land northward; RIGHT

2) there is a river route (the Sidon) that follows within that same route; RIGHT

3) the Sidon runs (downhill) from the land northward to Zarahemla, to the sea in the narrow strip of wilderness south of Zarahemla near Manti;
SIDON PASSES THROUGH THE NARROW STIP OF WILDERNESS THAT RUN PARALLEL TO THE SEA.

4) The Sidon does not enter Bountiful or the narrow neck or Desolation. RIGHT

5) The river was navigable by boat, and served as a major route for shipping timber, including sailing upstream loaded with timber cargo. RIGHT

Is that right? (Again, SEEING the map would be easier; picture = 10^3 words and all…. )

A sense of scale would be useful too for helping me visualize. How far as the crow flies from Zarahemla to Nephi, for example? Is Sorenson’s estimate too high, too low, and why?**

I’ll give you a map plus. You can download my thesis, “A North American Setting For The Book of Mormon” at http://brandley.poulsenll.org/ Once you click on the link be patient in giving it time to download as it is a big file in MS Word format.

Have a look at it and we can go from there. Steven Danderson was going to critique it on a separate FAIRblog but he has gotten too busy teaching to do it until the end of the year. So, now that we are into it I guess you are the one to do it if you want to.

-Theodore

Greg,

Don’t you think at some point it would be useful to consider a real world location? One that *best* fits one’s internal map in spite of one or two incongruities? It seems to me that even if one were to piece together a map from the text–with as much objectivity as is possible to conjure up–one will never divest oneself completely of one’s subjectivity.

Of course. I’m just saying, life is short. Starting with a single claim (e.g., the narrow neck = structure X) is a route that lies to madness, as the dozens upon dozens of proposed models demonstrate.

One needs the whole map to really assess a model. Or, at least, I do. (But, making a whole internal map is hard work; it isn’t the ‘fun part’–so people often seem to skip it.)

The word “head” has a different meaning when it relates to lands by the sea.

Yes, I know this is your argument. But I think this argument is circular, because I can see no reason for presuming that the “head” and “narrow strip of wilderness” is lower than the surrounding areas.

There are lots that really make it sound higher:

* “Behold, the Lamanites will cross the river Sidon in the south wilderness, away up beyond the borders of the
land of Manti. (Alma 16:6)

* remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti. (Alma 43:32) Here it sounds like Manti is DOWN from the Sidon ford where the battle takes place (which makes sense if Manti is near the headwaters; how do we have something downhill from the Sidon at the point where it is about to enter the sea? Maybe I need a visual to show me what you’re thinking)

* 27 And now I would speak somewhat concerning a certain number who went up into the wilderness to return to the land of Nephi; for there was a large number who were desirous to possess the land of their inheritance. Wherefore, they went up into the wilderness. (Omni 1:27 – 28)

* I have brought this my people [Zeniffites, from Zarahemla] up into this land, that they may destroy them; yea, and we have suffered these many years in the land [of Nephi]. (Mosiah 10:18)

* [from Nephi,] through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla. (Omni 1:13)

There are also several other examples of people coming “down into” Zarahemla from Nephi (e.g., Helaman 6:4)

So, this is why I have trouble picturing how you reconcile these repeated references with the idea that the “head” is effectively the lowest point (at sea level, entering the ocean).

There’s also a battle on foot up near Manti; sounds more like a headwaters sort of place than a large river running into a sea.

In Helaman 3:3 “an exceedingly great many” traveled from Zarahemla to the Land Northward with no mention of their going through Bountiful or the narrow neck.

So, just to be clear, your map says:

1) there is more than one land route from Zarahemla to the land northward;

2) there is a river route (the Sidon) that follows within that same route;

3) the Sidon runs (downhill) from the land northward to Zarahemla, to the sea in the narrow strip of wilderness south of Zarahemla near Manti;

4) The Sidon does not enter Bountiful or the narrow neck or Desolation

5) The river was navigable by boat, and served as a major route for shipping timber, including sailing upstream loaded with timber cargo.

Is that right? (Again, SEEING the map would be easier; picture = 10^3 words and all…. )

A sense of scale would be useful too for helping me visualize. How far as the crow flies from Zarahemla to Nephi, for example? Is Sorenson’s estimate too high, too low, and why?

Feel free to sketch and upload a rough “back of the envelope” sort of sketch/cartoon if you want.

Now, if you can accept the possibility that the river Sidon might flow from north to south then we can continue forward to explore what that might mean.

You’re welcome, of course, to explore any possibility you’d like here. I’m not in charge.

I’m just trying to point out–it is things like the above that are going to make some people (including me, at the moment) feel like you’ve put the cart before the horse by moving on with an assumption that seems to run counter to some aspects of the text.

But, by now you may consider me un-persuadable.

**Your idea of floating logs down the Sidon would require the Sidon to go through Bountiful/narrow neck/land Northward OR require some other route of the Sidon from Zarahemla to land northward. But, if a river can take that course, why can’t armies and men? But, they don’t.**

My model does not require the Sidon to go through Bountiful nor the narrow neck. In Helaman 3:3 “an exceedingly great many” traveled from Zarahemla to the Land Northward with no mention of their going through Bountiful or the narrow neck. The scouts of Limhi probably went the same route or they would have run into some Nephites going through the Land Bountiful. There is no record of armies going that route but that does not mean that at some time or other they did not. It appears that up until about 50 BC, as Mormon describes above, there were very few settlers in the Land Northward so there would be no need for armies to go that way. After that time period there are no details of Lamanite/ Nephite wars until you get to the days of Mormon.

**And, the river log shippers would either:
1) have to sail against the flow (i.e., river runs north to south); or..**

Sailing against the flow of a big lazy river is not a problem. The current is always faster on the outside of the curves (centrifugal force) and is usually quite still on the inside. Sailing from the inside to the inside of successive curves avoids the fast water and shortens the journey.

**Thus, your suggestion for a head cannot be correct, because rivers don’t run away from the sea**

The word “head” has a different meaning when it relates to lands by the sea. In that case it refers to a promontory or headland that juts out into the sea. English Captain William Hilton, in August of 1663, while exploring the Port Royal Sound, sighted the high bluffs of an Island, and named it for himself, “Hilton Head.” The word “Head” refers to the headlands visible to them as they sailed the uncharted waters.” (hiltonheadisland.com/history)

That the head of the River Sidon was near the sea is evidenced in the following texts:

“And thus he cut off all the strongholds of the Lamanites in the east wilderness, yea, and also on the west, fortifying the line between the Nephites and the Lamanites, between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi, FROM THE WEST SEA, RUNNING BY THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON…” (Alma 50:11, emphasis added).

And again in Alma 22:27 notice that the narrow strip of wilderness was “roundabout on the borders of the seashore,” and by the head of the river Sidon.

“And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west–and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.” (Alma 22:27)

The text is clear that the narrow strip of wilderness and the head of the river Sidon were near the sea. Therefore the head of the river Sidon cannot be the “headwaters” of the river which would be far away from the sea and in the highlands (as you mentioned water runs downhill ). The text is clear that the river Sidon runs from north to south.

At a huge battle near Sidon, again a multitude of bodies were thrown into the river “and they have gone forth and are buried in the depths of the sea” (Alma 44:22). It is not reasonable that all these dead bodies, in a warm climate where the Lamanites wore only loin clothes, would float all the way from the headwaters of the river, past the city of Zarahemla, to the sea before decomposing. It only makes sense if Manti was closer to the sea than Zarahemla—in which case again the river Sidon ran from north to south.

**If you want to argue that Desolation to Bountiful is “up”, but Bountiful to Zarahemla is “down,” then you have an even greater problem, since it means that the river is running down INTO the Zarahemla river valley, but must run uphill to Manti/narrow strip of wilderness. Zarahemla will soon be a large lake. **

Nowhere in the text does the river Sidon run through, around or near the Land of Bountiful, and Manti/narrow strip of wilderness is near the sea and therefore very low so there is no problem in draining your imaginary lake.

There is a narrow pass that runs between Desolation and Bountiful (Alma 52:9) so there obviously is a range of high hills or mountains between them that one must go up and over..

**The book is pretty clear that Bountiful sits north of Zarahemla, athwart the route into Desolation/the narrow neck/the land northward. It is the focus of at least three separate military actions.**

This is one of the routes into Desolation but not the only one.

Now, if you can accept the possibility that the river Sidon might flow from north to south then we can continue forward to explore what that might mean.

-Theodore