It is possible that the Grand Canyon was made in a day, maybe by the drainage of a large lake? That’s just speculation on my part, but why does the canyon erosion suddenly end at Lake Mead? I heard that theory from somewhere, I’ll have to dig it up & find out the source.

Another source of info that I think is typically ignored is from the people who where actually there when these great changes occurred, Indian history. There’s a lot we can learn from them if we ask them.

A more apt description of the entire face of the land changing might Mount St. Helens, which certainly looks very different from what it did before, but it didn’t move to a new location. Whatever happened in 3 Nephi was significant enough to notice, but not so great that no lived through it and certainly not so great that they therefore didn’t know where they were or how to get from city to city. For example Nephi starts his story in Zarahemla but tells the rest from Bountiful. It appears he could still find the way, since it appears that he made the change after the geological event. Neither Zarahemla nor Bountiful had moved and the way between was apparently intact.

Rivers, lakes, oceans, etc. may have been in vastly different locations then now. Lake Bonniville comes to mind as one of the big changes. Every time I go hiking I’m amazed by how many snail shells still litter the ground near the old shoreline.

If that is the case, then at least you are a step above those that only base what they believe on the brethren from back in the day.

However, the only reason that Palmer can be refuted at all is using a placement for the Land Southward in Mesoamerica. If you place the Land Southward in the United States, then Palmer still comes out on top. It’s kind of an irony. Palmer’s argument was so solid against geographies in the US because his criteria are solid and fit only in Mesoamerica. Where Palmer is wrong is trying to force those criteria on Cumorah. You cannot explain away the criteria that these guys have come up with for the Land of Zarahemla. You can do it till you are red in the face, only to be kicking against the pricks.

I’m sure that I haven’t considered every point of which you speak, but will probably have to defend every point in the upcoming critique. My confidence flows from my reading of the text of the Book of Mormon itself. I use very few quotes from the Brethren.

I applaud your efforts in analyzing the issue of Cumorah and look forward to reading your article.

Have you addressed David Palmer’s argument in In Search of Cumorah? Have you addressed each and every point and refuted them rationally? I doubt it. And until that is done, a slogan won’t do anybody any good, or will an opinion that it is so. That is why I am taking this controversy to a new level.

IMHO a Cumorah in New York is not only rational, it is true.

-Theodore

I recognize your right to believe as you do. But your confidence is misplaced.

I for one, am not just after a theory and to have confidence in it. I’m after the truth, and I want to be refuted if my work is not right. My article “Resurrecting Cumorah” is likely to be published in an upcoming issue of Dialogue soon, or so it seems from their initial reaction to it. So all of the Mesoamericanists can tear into it, and can show me once and for all if I’m wrong on Cumorah, or whether they have to admit once and for all that a Cumorah in New York is rational. This will be my ultimate challenge to them to “convert” me entirely, and if they are right, then I need to be converted. I’ve worked on this particular article for a number of years now. I thought it would be part of a book that I was writing, but it just didn’t fit. They’ve succeeded thus far in converting me to the view that the Land Southward and Narrow Neck are in Mesoamerica.

My new book will be a refutation of the geocentric cosmology of the Book of Abraham and the Kolob-as-the-star-Sirus theory. It will also attempt to resurrect the notion that we should take the cosmology in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers seriously. It will be called “The Nail of Heaven: God’s throne and the Governing Worlds.” The scope of the book was going to be broader at first, but some of the contents just didn’t fit, such as the Cumorah article.

Thank you for your comments. I’m sorry that I was not aware of your book on the subject. I’m sure that I could have learned some things from it. And I thank you for your cautions, however I have a high level of confidence in what I have written—not that it will be found to be without flaws nor subject to improvement.

It will be critiqued openly on FAIRblog and your comments will be welcomed.

-Theodore

I see that you are also proposing a North American Setting as I did with Wayne May in my book This Land: Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation that was published in 2002. Take it from me. The North American Theory is doomed, and is simply not true. I should know. Your conclusions about your head of the Sidon theory are like mine used to be. Its hard to tell whether they are dependent on my old theory or not, or whether they are original to you, but it is, nevertheless the same type of thing. Rather than interpreting it the simple way as it should be that would lead one to the conclusion that the Land Southward was in Mesoamerica, the obvious place for the Land Southward, you follow the same trap I fell into back then thinking that you can explain away the simple meaning of the word head as it is normally understood in English in relation to a river. Occam’s razor favors the simple explanation. There is no way to get around the archaeological colossus of Mesoamerica as John Clark calls it. A North American setting for the Book of Mormon for the Land Southward simply doesn’t work, and I have long since retracted what I wrote about it, although May continues to publish the book as if I continue to agree with it, which I dont. However, I find your theory to be interesting. It is, however, fundamentally flawed, especially if you believe what Joseph Smith wrote about the Geography (not that Brant does). Joseph Smith stated to the brethren, as recorded in the Levi Hancock Journal, that the area where they dug up Zelph was the “Land of Desolation”, forcing the Narrow Neck SOUTH of the United States of America. This refutes any North American Geography, as all North American theory advocates seem to put stock in what Joseph Smith has to say on the subject.

I believe Cumorah and the Land Northward are in the United States until such time that my current arguments can be refuted that are not based on the words of the prophets, but on the Book of Mormon text. If my current work is refuted, then I will retract my current theory on Cumorah as well. But as for the Land Southward and Narrow Neck, Joseph Smith’s own words refute the North American theory and force those things down Southward.