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	<title>Comments on: Where the Lost Boys Go</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/</link>
	<description>Defending Mormonism</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6</generator>
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		<title>By: Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-3270</link>
		<dc:creator>Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-3270</guid>
		<description>Carlo,

You might want to see two related posts and comments where I create a list of articles that explore Deseret polygamy statistics. You need an academic subscription to elctronic journal databases to access some of them.

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/21/and-we-multiplied-exceedingly/

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/13/lawrence-odonnells-charges-of-rape/

My research is on going as I would like to address some of the criticism received here. 1) examine the effect of immigration. 2) separate out what the Gentile population in Utah is doing. 3) Present more of a dynamic overview instead of relying so much on an 1880 snapshot.

I suspect that immigrants were close to a 50-50 male female ratio, but before immigrating/converting were married off at a much less efficient rate and hence had a growth rate smaller than more established Mormon families in Utah. So the short term impact of immigration would be a spike in new marriages, but long term would decrease the growth rate as it would take awhile for offspring from these new unions to become part of the marriage pool.

Currently I have been analyzing the Mormon Immigration Index to see if I can confirm or deny that working hypothesis. 

If I see more helpful articles I will continue to post them here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carlo,</p>
<p>You might want to see two related posts and comments where I create a list of articles that explore Deseret polygamy statistics. You need an academic subscription to elctronic journal databases to access some of them.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/21/and-we-multiplied-exceedingly/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/21/and-we-multiplied-exceedingly/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/13/lawrence-odonnells-charges-of-rape/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fairblog.org/2008/01/13/lawrence-odonnells-charges-of-rape/</a></p>
<p>My research is on going as I would like to address some of the criticism received here. 1) examine the effect of immigration. 2) separate out what the Gentile population in Utah is doing. 3) Present more of a dynamic overview instead of relying so much on an 1880 snapshot.</p>
<p>I suspect that immigrants were close to a 50-50 male female ratio, but before immigrating/converting were married off at a much less efficient rate and hence had a growth rate smaller than more established Mormon families in Utah. So the short term impact of immigration would be a spike in new marriages, but long term would decrease the growth rate as it would take awhile for offspring from these new unions to become part of the marriage pool.</p>
<p>Currently I have been analyzing the Mormon Immigration Index to see if I can confirm or deny that working hypothesis. </p>
<p>If I see more helpful articles I will continue to post them here.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Carlo</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-3264</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-3264</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Carlo...&lt;/strong&gt;

After reading this, I can see why people keep leaving comments. I hope this isn't rejected, cause i would really like to read more. Can you post some more good literature?...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Carlo&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>After reading this, I can see why people keep leaving comments. I hope this isn&#8217;t rejected, cause i would really like to read more. Can you post some more good literature?&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Times &#38; Seasons &#187; Notes from all over.</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-3236</link>
		<dc:creator>Times &#38; Seasons &#187; Notes from all over.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-3236</guid>
		<description>[...] Did Deseret polygamy create ‘lost boys’? 10th Jun 2008 @ 4 PM [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Did Deseret polygamy create ‘lost boys’? 10th Jun 2008 @ 4 PM [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-3102</link>
		<dc:creator>Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-3102</guid>
		<description>Here is the same calculations for males.

Age 2006(US) 1880(US) 1880 (UT)
15-19	98.5	98.8	98.6
20-24	86.7	77.3	70.3
25-29	57.4	41.1	33.5
30-34	33.4	23.8	22.7
35-39	23.3	14.9	17.4


The only age range that was less married was the 35-39 year olds.

Further dissection of that age range shows that of the 638 single men, 198 were miners and 46 were soldiers. At that age range 85% of the soldiers in Fort Cameron or Douglas were single and 51% of the miners were. Throwing miners and soldiers out of the sample drops the never married number down to 12.2% which is below the national average.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the same calculations for males.</p>
<p>Age 2006(US) 1880(US) 1880 (UT)<br />
15-19	98.5	98.8	98.6<br />
20-24	86.7	77.3	70.3<br />
25-29	57.4	41.1	33.5<br />
30-34	33.4	23.8	22.7<br />
35-39	23.3	14.9	17.4</p>
<p>The only age range that was less married was the 35-39 year olds.</p>
<p>Further dissection of that age range shows that of the 638 single men, 198 were miners and 46 were soldiers. At that age range 85% of the soldiers in Fort Cameron or Douglas were single and 51% of the miners were. Throwing miners and soldiers out of the sample drops the never married number down to 12.2% which is below the national average.</p>
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		<title>By: Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-3101</link>
		<dc:creator>Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-3101</guid>
		<description>I thought I would add this here so I don't lose it for future reference. The table below is for female never married percentages. The 2006 numbers for the US are from the census.gov site, the 1880 US numbers are from IPUMS and 1880 UT numbers are summarized from ancestry.com by calculating never marrieds = single/(single+married+divorced+widowed) and removing obvious errors for some of the lower teens.


Age      2006(US) 1880(US)  1880(UT)
13-14    --          99.6       99.9                       
15-17    98.6        94.8       91.4
18-19    94.7        78.7       62.5
20-24    75.3        48.4       26.0
25-29    43.1        23.2       7.53
30-34    24.0        14.3       3.09
35-39    16.7        10.8       1.71</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought I would add this here so I don&#8217;t lose it for future reference. The table below is for female never married percentages. The 2006 numbers for the US are from the census.gov site, the 1880 US numbers are from IPUMS and 1880 UT numbers are summarized from ancestry.com by calculating never marrieds = single/(single+married+divorced+widowed) and removing obvious errors for some of the lower teens.</p>
<p>Age      2006(US) 1880(US)  1880(UT)<br />
13-14    &#8212;          99.6       99.9<br />
15-17    98.6        94.8       91.4<br />
18-19    94.7        78.7       62.5<br />
20-24    75.3        48.4       26.0<br />
25-29    43.1        23.2       7.53<br />
30-34    24.0        14.3       3.09<br />
35-39    16.7        10.8       1.71</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-2530</link>
		<dc:creator>Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 04:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-2530</guid>
		<description>Another interesting quote:



&lt;blockquote&gt;Moreover, the gap between the proportion of [Manti] men and women who never married (2.9 percent and 2.3 percent respectively) became insignificant in the younger cohort. In any case, the proportions of men and " women who married was extremely high in comparison to their contemporaries. Over 8 percent of American men and women born " between 1835 and 1864 remained unmarried, while in northwestern Europe, the former home of many Utahns, about 20 percent remained single.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another interesting quote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Moreover, the gap between the proportion of [Manti] men and women who never married (2.9 percent and 2.3 percent respectively) became insignificant in the younger cohort. In any case, the proportions of men and &#8221; women who married was extremely high in comparison to their contemporaries. Over 8 percent of American men and women born &#8221; between 1835 and 1864 remained unmarried, while in northwestern Europe, the former home of many Utahns, about 20 percent remained single.</p></blockquote>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Keller</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-2527</link>
		<dc:creator>Keller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 04:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-2527</guid>
		<description>John,

You make some good points. I just discovered an &lt;a href="http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/jmh&#038;CISOPTR=11414&#038;CISOSHOW=11296" rel="nofollow"&gt;article&lt;/a&gt; by Kathryn Daynes that explores this topic further (HT: &lt;a href="http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2007/01/single-men-lets-keep-polygamy.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Jeff Lindsay&lt;/a&gt;). Her findings mirror my own and add to them.

Some interesting quotes:



&lt;blockquote&gt;Despite the disadvantages of males in the Utah marriage market, an in-depth study of marriage patterns in Manti, Utah, shows that only a small percentage of men failed eventually to marry and that they married at younger ages than men generally in the United States during the second half of the nineteenth century.&lt;/blockquote&gt;





&lt;blockquote&gt;It is unclear, though, how many non-Mormon men, such as soldiers, merchants, and miners, were included in each census. Dean May has calculated that non-Mormons accounted for 12 percent of Utah's population in 1860 and 21 percent in 1880. Because non-Mormon men undoubtedly outnumbered non-Mormon women in nineteenth-century Utah, the preponderance of men, as shown in the census, is unlikely to reflect the sex ratio within the Mormon population.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>You make some good points. I just discovered an <a href="http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/jmh&#038;CISOPTR=11414&#038;CISOSHOW=11296" rel="nofollow">article</a> by Kathryn Daynes that explores this topic further (HT: <a href="http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2007/01/single-men-lets-keep-polygamy.html" rel="nofollow">Jeff Lindsay</a>). Her findings mirror my own and add to them.</p>
<p>Some interesting quotes:</p>
<blockquote><p>Despite the disadvantages of males in the Utah marriage market, an in-depth study of marriage patterns in Manti, Utah, shows that only a small percentage of men failed eventually to marry and that they married at younger ages than men generally in the United States during the second half of the nineteenth century.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>It is unclear, though, how many non-Mormon men, such as soldiers, merchants, and miners, were included in each census. Dean May has calculated that non-Mormons accounted for 12 percent of Utah&#8217;s population in 1860 and 21 percent in 1880. Because non-Mormon men undoubtedly outnumbered non-Mormon women in nineteenth-century Utah, the preponderance of men, as shown in the census, is unlikely to reflect the sex ratio within the Mormon population.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: John Pack Lambert</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-2479</link>
		<dc:creator>John Pack Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 18:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-2479</guid>
		<description>It might be worth comparing the percentages of people married at certain ages to the 1881 British census and Scandinavian censuses of the same time period.  Swiss Censuses might come into play.  Also, if you knew marriage ages of people in Italy, the Austria-Hungary Empire, Germany and Russia it might help explain what is going on.  
   If you could isolate the percentage married at certain ages in immigrant groups.  Also a comparison of marriage age in England and Ireland.  With so many Latter-day Saints being from England, Denmark and other European countries, and with the beganings of Italian, Eastern European Jewish and Polish immigration in 1880 foriegn countries ages at marriage are probably inportant to a full understanding.
    Another thing to look at with converts is that most are probably under age 25, and so the gender ratio does not matter if it means that the younger females are outnumbering the older males they plan to marry.
   One other thing though, we have to remember that by 1880 there were large mining operation in parts of Utah with many non-Mormoms working there.  I am not sure if the Greeks had yet flooded into Carbon County, but many outsiders are in Utah, and many of these may be recent arrivals just scraping by in mining jobs, which may explain in part the many unmarried men at all ages.
   There may also be either deliberate denial of former marriages or with a miner there on his own, leaving his family behind in the east or Ireland or whereever, it may also be that the census taker got the info from a neighbor who did not know the guy was or had been married, so there may be complications there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might be worth comparing the percentages of people married at certain ages to the 1881 British census and Scandinavian censuses of the same time period.  Swiss Censuses might come into play.  Also, if you knew marriage ages of people in Italy, the Austria-Hungary Empire, Germany and Russia it might help explain what is going on.<br />
   If you could isolate the percentage married at certain ages in immigrant groups.  Also a comparison of marriage age in England and Ireland.  With so many Latter-day Saints being from England, Denmark and other European countries, and with the beganings of Italian, Eastern European Jewish and Polish immigration in 1880 foriegn countries ages at marriage are probably inportant to a full understanding.<br />
    Another thing to look at with converts is that most are probably under age 25, and so the gender ratio does not matter if it means that the younger females are outnumbering the older males they plan to marry.<br />
   One other thing though, we have to remember that by 1880 there were large mining operation in parts of Utah with many non-Mormoms working there.  I am not sure if the Greeks had yet flooded into Carbon County, but many outsiders are in Utah, and many of these may be recent arrivals just scraping by in mining jobs, which may explain in part the many unmarried men at all ages.<br />
   There may also be either deliberate denial of former marriages or with a miner there on his own, leaving his family behind in the east or Ireland or whereever, it may also be that the census taker got the info from a neighbor who did not know the guy was or had been married, so there may be complications there.</p>
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		<title>By: TrevorM</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-2073</link>
		<dc:creator>TrevorM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-2073</guid>
		<description>Thanks to FAIR, for its research and hard work.  I appreciate studies like this very much!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to FAIR, for its research and hard work.  I appreciate studies like this very much!</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.fairblog.org/2008/04/27/where-the-lost-boys-go/#comment-2048</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fairblog.org/?p=79#comment-2048</guid>
		<description>One thing to keep in mind when considering time was the huge influx of immigrants I believe after the Civil War.  So Utah was still very much in flux when mainstream practice ended in 1894.  That was, what, about 14 years since the big influx?  And only 40 years since it really was enacted publicly.  Two generations and with most of that dealing with big population booms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing to keep in mind when considering time was the huge influx of immigrants I believe after the Civil War.  So Utah was still very much in flux when mainstream practice ended in 1894.  That was, what, about 14 years since the big influx?  And only 40 years since it really was enacted publicly.  Two generations and with most of that dealing with big population booms.</p>
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