Glen Cook

Glad to hear it, David. Thanks for the clarification!

Semantics, semantics. Maybe “apologetic” was the wrong term. I argue only for open, honest exploration and discussion. I am certain that there are many “real experts” out there that have no interest other than discovery and documentation of actual history – where ever it leads. That is all I wish to promote.

As for the second quote attributed to me in your post, please add “And visa-versa” to the end.

DWReed

Why do you suggest an “apologetic” group? This would suggest that only those who wish to defend the LDS church against perceived “attacks” are welcome to participate. I can guarantee you that some of the real experts on these issues have no interest in producing LDS apologetics.

This should be open to all and be held to a high academic standard.

In all honesty, this tends to be at odds with the goal of “an apologetics group.” If your goal is to produce LDS apologetics, then conclusions from research will be skewed/spun to support an author’s interpretation of what makes the LDS church look best. That’s hardly a way to research real history.

My own research has found issues which reflect well on both the LDS church and on the Fraternity. It has also found issues which reflect poorly on both the LDS church and on the Fraternity. I try to be as objective as possible, and follow the evidence, rather than making the evidence conform to presupposed agendas.

Also, we must not exclude those only interested in Masonic history as it relates to the LDS Nauvoo period and are not interested in pursuing the Craft itself.

If you feel this way, then I suggest you apply the same reasoning, in order to not exclude those who are not interested in pursuing the LDS church itself.

1. Create a dedicated online Mormon/Mason apologetic group so that we can continue to explore & debate the historicity of this issue. This should be open to all and be held to a high academic standard. LDSMason.com would be a great starting platform if Joseph is offering it. I would be happy to throw money at it if necessary.

2. For those of us who are, or may be interested in becoming, Freemasons, we should explore, with the input and counsel of the Grand Lodge of Illinois, the possibility of chartering a Lodge of Research — and hopefully somewhere down the road an “occasional” Lodge — both of which would physically meet in Nauvoo at least annually. If we could gain enough support from LDS & non-LDS Masons in Hancock County (& elsewhere) maybe then we could come up with a plan for a historical reproduction of Nauvoo’s original Lodge room, if not the entire original Masonic building.

If we do pursue the establishment of a Lodge & possibly re-creating a Lodge Room, it would be a good idea to create a non-profit “Nauvoo Masonic Association” as soon a possible to act as an independent fund raising and property management entity.

The one thing, I think, that we do not want to do is to once again alienate the Freemasons of Illinois in our efforts to understand the Mormon/Masonic experience of 1840′s Nauvoo. We must work with them and help them, whenever possible, to promote the Craft in the Nauvoo & Illinois of today.

Also, we must not exclude those only interested in Masonic history as it relates to the LDS Nauvoo period and are not interested in pursuing the Craft itself.

That’s my suggestion. It would give us a place to start, something for all to build upon and a clear idea of where we would like to go.

B&F,

DWReed

http://nauvoorealestate.com/

If we could come up with $1.7 million, we could purchase Hyrum (Hiram) Smith’s old farm. How poetic would THAT be! It is at the east end of Nauvoo, and includes 29 acres and a hot tub. For those who are looking, it is the first property listed under the “Nauvoo Area” listings.

If you want to go virtual, I bought ldsmasons.com several years ago, but have done nothing with it.

For a lodge of research, I have spoken with a publisher in Massachusetts, and they are very interested in reprinting all of the old Masonic classics, and have asked if I would be willing to send them my small collection to get them started. Any other brethren or collectors who have them, you can contact me off list, and I will get you their contact information if you would like to participate in this project.

S&F,

Joseph

* Shouldn’t there be some sort of open, accessible Masonic presence IN Nauvoo – for historical reasons, if nothing else?

The precedent for this is Internet Lodge, which operates under the aegis of the United Grand Lodge of England. Here is the link:

http://internet.lodge.org.uk/

Frats,
JS

I would mention that I’ll be significantly expanding on my remarks at the above link in a presentation I’ll be making on the 22nd of this month before a Masonic research body here in Washington State. Once I’ve done so, I’ll be happy to share that discussion with others who may be interested. In fact, if my remarks are solid enough, they may actually be published in the transactions of this research body.

This lays the groundwork for a much-needed discussion on ascent themes in Freemasonry as they relate to Mormonism. A second lecture by me on this precise topic is already in the works, so to speak, and I trust it will act as a much-needed corrective to the apologetic excesses (!) and misses of certain other well-known speakers on the subject.

My very next bit will be on a subject which I promise will be a positive historical delight to some and an absolute theological shock and dread to others. I don’t know why I’ve waited so long to publish it, but Nick is currently flogging me for not finishing this long-overdue piece of research before his book is ready, and I suppose the time is now. This piece is also already well underway, and I’m absolutely excited about it. Learning from past errors, I wouldn’t comment on this if the thing weren’t actually relatively close to completion.

Nick, Brent, Don, Kerry and others who have heard the particulars are likely breathing out “it’s about dingdang time, Joe!”

Actually, that sounds most like Kerry.

Well, no external permission outside of the Grand Lodge of Illinois.

The only “slow” part of it would be the initial body of research / presentations, which would be a draw or attraction for additional members. This Lodge should be prepared to make available the very best scholarship on the subject of Mormonism and Masonry, past and present.

Of course, another similar possibility is to do some remodeling of the Utah Lodge of Research, which is currently in the doldrums. I’m certain its present Master would love that kind of support.

Again, my concern is that this conversation is occuring on the FAIR website is troubling to me. It isn’t lost on me that in the case of the Nauvoo Lodge room restoration, and in the case of a Mormon-Masonic research organization, the opportunity to cheapen these to a propaganda move by a group like FAIR is possible. This makes me exceedingly uncomfortable.

And while I understand your recent need to close down and “censor” recent posts in this particular venue, it is also not lost on me that propaganda and censorship can be dangerous bedfellows.

Indeed we did discuss this in some detail. The precise shape of it was a matter of some consideration. For example, it could be an invitational, active research body, with membership limited to those prepared to research, publish or present. I belong to one or two Masonic bodies of this sort.

Now that the little bird has whispered in the ear, I wonder how long it will take to realize this worthy idea.

I suppose one could create a “virtual lodge of research” which would exist outside any established masonic jurisdiction, but I think that would limit certain opportunities. I think it’s also very important that we try to avoid any circumstance which could raise the ire of any participant’s respective grand lodge.

At the most, it is a fair criticism of the recent Gilbert Scharffs title, unfortunately mistitled Mormons & Masons: Setting the Record Straight.

Joe Swick, Joseph Johnstun, and I discussed this idea at length before circumstances led to my moving away from Nauvoo. It would be a wonderful thing, and in many ways, more of a tribute to the early Mormon Masons than any attempt to “restore” the Lodge Room would be.

I look forward to reading all of these books that are being done so far the offering have been on the “light” side of reading.

So very true! That gets me in trouble sometimes! Heh…

Part of the trouble, Mark, is that we can count on one hand the people who are actually qualified to do this. It’s not just a matter of having a solid background in both Mormonism and Freemasonry. It’s a matter of having a solid background in the esoterica of each. It’s a matter of re-examing the original historical sources (which I’ve done first-hand) and finding the plethora of misquotes and/or “facts” taken out of context on both sides. It’s a matter of travelling throughout the country (which I’ve done), finding original records which have never been examined by scholars, let alone published.

I’m “electronically acquainted” with Chris Holdapp, and while his book is a very nice introduction to the Fraternity for non-Masons, it is not a scholarly treatment, and does not represent an example of how to adequately discuss the relationship between Mormonism and Freemasonry (the real relationship, not the strange rants postumously published in the name of Anthony Ivins, under that title).

Keep writing.

This question is important for several reasons:

1. First, a significant amount of both anti-Mormon and anti-Masonic literature is based on a lack of understanding and a willingness to misrepresent the truth about these two groups and the relationship between them. It is in the interests of both the LDS and the Masons to address this issue directly.
2. Second, not only is this issue not going away, it is going to get a great deal more attention—and very soon, too. Dan Brown, the author of The Da Vinci Code, has publicly stated that his next novel will focus on the Freemasons. Whenever attention is focused on the Freemasons, attention is also given to the supposed Mormon-Mason connection. In addition, several authors have speculated that Brown’s book will explicitly focus on this connection; if this speculation is true, then there is all the more reason for both Mormon and Masonic thinkers to get ahead of the curve, as it were, and have responses for the curious public (who will be hearing plenty from the adversarial evangelical community). I expect this book to be in stores within the next year, possibly as soon as Christmas 2008.

Nick Literski wrote, regarding the relationship between Masonry and Mormonism: “Someone ought to write a book that sets forth the evidence and context, rather than repeating some of the goofy stories which have circulated for 100+ years.” I am in the middle of writing that book; my agent in New York is preparing to represent it to publishers. (My thoughts were recently summarized in a comment I submitted to Chris Hodapp’s “Freemasons for Dummies” blog, in response to his posting about the discussion of the Nauvoo Lodge restoration on this website.) However, we—by which I mean Latter-day Saints and Masons—need many thinkers taking historically based and well-considered positions on these issues. I respectfully suggest that some thread on the FAIR blog be devoted to this issue.

Disclosure: I am both a temple-attending Latter-day Saint and an active Freemason. (For those on this thread for whom this statement is not enough: yes, I mean ‘LDS’ as in ‘the church headquartered across the street from Temple Square in Salt Lake’; I have served in two bishoprics and on a high council, and currently teach the Gospel Doctrine class in Sunday School; I have published in Sunstone and Dialogue. In addition, yes, I mean ‘Freemason’ as in ‘of a regular lodge chartered by a Grand Lodge F&AM’; I serve as Marshal in my local lodge and JW in my Templar Commandery; I was published this past year in The Scottish Rite Journal.)

No kidding. Someone ought to write a book that sets forth the evidence and context, rather than repeating some of the goofy stories which have circulated for 100+ years.

Absolutely. I would immediately affiliate with Nauvoo Lodge, even if it were an occasional/specialty Lodge or a research body.

-David

May I suggest that this kind of discussion can be a great learning tool. A while back Joe Swick and I mixed it up a bit on Masonry, which I think is one of the best inter-Mormonism discussions of Masonry on the web. It can be found here.

-David

I did respond to you here.

You should not go away mad or hurt. I suspect your views that were attacked, represent a certain segments of LDS folks. Fearing to look condescending, may I respectfully submit that you just have not come to understand a few things. And that why the discussion here may have gotten a little heated, this site and sites like it are a good place to learn these topics.

-David

I’m going to post some questions/comments on your blog under the “What Mormon Mysticism is about” part, and you can respond I suppose if you choose.

However, Nauvoo ought to have, and historically deserves, a Lodge (there are many of us here in Utah that would love to affiliate!) and Masonic Library – a place where the overlapping histories and practices of Mormonism and Freemasonry can be openly explored. In my opinion, an accurate reproduction of the original structure somewhere other than the Flats would be a good compromise. (Pull down that ugly water tower & build it there!)

IMHO, Freemasonry and Mormonism naturally overlap and are mutually beneficial. Freemasonry profoundly influenced the cultures in Nauvoo and Pioneer Utah and most LDS don’t give the early Brethren’s association with Freemasonry the credit it deserves. Its affects are were/are felt in everything from Temple Ordinances to Priesthood organization to the Relief Society to Ward Councils. We owe much to these early pioneer Mormons/Masons and should honor them, not try to hide the innumerable contributions they made to the Church and to the Craft. A new Masonic Hall, much like the new Temple, would be a great way to remember the contributions and sacrifices of these great men.

What can I do to help get it done??

By the way, arguing that Mormon’s shouldn’t be Masons, or that Masons don’t make good Mormons, is as nonsensical as arguing that Mormons aren’t Christians. Freemasonry may not be for every Priesthood holder in the Church but many, many good LDS men, such as myself, find that it is the perfect companion to the Gospel for intellectual, social, emotional, and spiritual growth.

MormonMysticism.com

-David

I regret that I get hot headed and that I need to lay off these blogs.

This is a private posting, I am the author and administrator of the same. Charges of censorship are bogus as this is not a governmental agency but a private venue and I have every right, and in fact a duty, to keep it on topic and civil.

Any further infections and I will close the postings and delete them.

George: That’s why I was directing my comments towards delvers who join freemasonry to delve into its mysteries, not to some guy whose LDS that joins because he’s some business dude wanting to get contacts.

Actually, George, you suggested that Freemasory was a positive evil, and that those Latter-day Saints who joined would lose the spirit and leave the Church.

I’d say that the word “delvers” saves you from using the more commmon term “seekers.” Every man comes to the door of a Lodge symbolically looking for something, and IT AIN’T BUSINESS CONTACTS, brother. This is true of Mormon and non-Mormon alike.

Hmm. This conversation has gone far afield of the Nauvoo Lodge reconstruction. It underscores why the world may not be ready for it quite yet.

I’d love to see them offlist, if you’re not unwilling to send them along, George.

George: Harold B. Lee said that Masons should be weaned off of their craft and they should leave it behind, because he doesn’t care what they were, he only cares what they should become.

Fascinating! I’m not unaware of negative remarks by some regarding Freemasonry. However, such views were not unanimous, and some were based upon misunderstandings about the nature of Freemasonry. I’m fine with that. One has to weigh such remarks on their relative merits, I think.

For instance, in the quote you mention by the late Harold B. Lee, I wonder first at the context of his remark. What brought forth his comment? Secondly, what specific aspects of the Mason’s Craft should I be weaned from? What is it that President Lee found objectionable? Was it the obligation to live a moral and upright life? Was it the Mason’s obligation to extend his charitable actions over all humanity? Was it the fostering within the Lodge of the principles of fraternity, liberty, equality and independent thought? Was it the strong Masonic hatred of tyranny that he found objectionable? Or perhaps the setting of proper priorities (i.e., first God, then family, then country)? Perhaps it was the allegorical instruction of the Lodge itself that disagreed with his sensibilities? If not these things, then precisely what?

In the end, I’m left to wonder what specific “Masonic” behaviors Harold B. Lee might have thought Latter-day Saint Freemasons might wish to abandon. Is it the once or twice a month I participate in Masonic events (Lodge meeting, the yearly strawberry feed . . .)? Is it the long passage from the Bible that I was required to memorize for one of my Masonic offices? Hmmm. Enquiring minds want to know!

In this particular case, “because he said so” isn’t likely the best answer.

No one here has done any such thing, David. Rather, I was critical of scholars/historians who misrepresent the facts of history, when they should know better. I in fact alluded not to leaders of the Church, but to a well-known apologist, whose book, Setting the Record Straight: Mormons & Masons is in my judgement horrible in most every way. This is unfortunate, since it also attempts to “build bridges,” to use your own language. It’s simply not a bridge anyone should rest their weight upon.

I also think that restoring Nauvoo Lodge is a great idea. However, I’m quite naturally suspicious when I see the discussion first appearing on a website like the FAIR blog. No offense to Brother Greg, but this makes me seriously question motives. And if such a restoration of the room leads to stacks of Scharffs’ book being distributed as a “setting of the record straight,” then I’m afraid I’m ambivalent about that. In other words, I question what use would be made of such a restoration. If it promotes bad history or inaccurate views, that would make me wince.

In case you were wondering, Dave, this is actually a counterpoint and caution to Greg’s initial remark, that such a restoration would engender discussion, and allow a gentle introduction of the topic of the shared history of Mormonism and Freemasonry. It could do that, of course. Or it could lead to a confederacy of dunces, who simply repeat every misconception of the last 100 years.

And since I’ve been here labled an “enemy of the Church” and a “slayer of souls,” let me provide the small text disclaimer: By “confederacy of dunces,” I mean no disrespect to any Church leader, living or dead, or any particular Church member, or even any particular scholar, Mormon or Masonic. Said confederacy is only one projected outcome of several possible outcomes. Your own mileage may vary; check your personal warranty for further conditions, coverage or possible exclusions. Void where prohibited by law.

I’m just sayin.

What I was objecting to was Greg’s innocent comment being used as a springboard to start criticizing the church for not knowing the history, hiding the history, and having ulterior motives (the old saws), etc. etc.

And if that is all the restoration is going to bring, use it as a cultural hall.

-David