The “Two Cumorah Theory”
There has been much talk both in publications and on the internet about the existence of two Cumorahs with relation to the location of the Book of Mormon culture.
The following verses from the book of Ether describe the relationship between the Jaredite lands, the hill Shim and the Hill Cumorah.
To summarize:
- The only seashore mentioned with respect to the Jaredite lands was eastward.
- This seashore was eastward of both the Hill Shim and the Hill Cumorah
- The Hill Cumorah and the Hill Ramah were where Mormon hid up all the records save those few that he gave to his son Moroni.
- The Book of Mormon was translated from the plates given to Moroni and not those buried in the Hill Cumorah.
- The last battle of both the Nephites and the Jaredites took place at or near the same location.
And it came to pass that he fought with Lib, in which Lib did smite upon his arm that he was wounded; nevertheless, the army of Coriantumr did press forward upon Lib, that he fled to the borders upon the seashore. And it came to pass that Coriantumr pursued him; and Lib gave battle unto him upon the seashore. * * * And it came to pass that Shiz did pursue Coriantumr eastward, even to the borders by the seashore, and there he gave battle unto Shiz for the space of three days.
And the Lord warned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer departed out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of Shim, and came over by the place where the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family.
And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.
The BofM only mentions one Cumorah. It was the same hill that the Jaredites called Ramah. It was located near the western seashore of a body of water large enough to be called a sea.
The Hill in New York, mistakenly named Cumorah by early Saints is south of any body of water large enough to be called a sea. It is too far west to be thought of as near the Atlantic seashore. This seashore being the only one east of Palmyra.I think we do a miss service when we talk about two Cumorahs or the “Two Cumorah theory.” This is like talking about the Two Yorks theory as an explanation of why there is a York in England and a new York in America.
February 12th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
There’s a few more questions we need to answer.
Where did the last battle of the Nephites and the Jaredites take place? Central America or New York? Some modern-day prophets say that New York is the very spot of the last great battles of these civilizations. Was this their opinion and not prophetic truth?
If the Hill Cumorah in New York is not where the sacred records were stored, then how did Moroni get all the way up to New York to deposit the plates of the Book of Mormon there? And why did Joseph Smith and others see a vision of the New York Hill Cumorah open up and see stacks and stacks of plates? How would Moroni have gotten all those plates up to New York to place in the Hill Cumorah in New York?
My belief is that there is only one Hill Cumorah, and it is the one in New York. That is where the last battles were, and that is where all the plates were hid.
February 12th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
And not to be cheeky but there is also a third York Theory. The old name of Toronto (there is still a suburb known as North York).
February 12th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Bryce
Moroni had thirty five years of wandering to get from mesoamerica to New York. It only took the saints less than two years to get from Nauvoo to the Salt Lake valley and pioneers took less than a year to travel from St Louis to California.
John Lund has published maps stored in the Chuch Archives that were drawn based on converstions with Joseph Smith that show Moroni’s travels from Mexico to New York.
http://www.elektroteck.com/bens/SCAN0003.JPG
The vision was of the actual storage cave. It could have been anywhere in the world. The assumption that it was in the hill in New York are the opinions of men and there is no sense of agreement in the different reports of the experience.
Larry P
February 13th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Ok. Thanks for your insights.
How do you reconcile the statements of prophets who say the last great Nephite and Jaredite battles were at the Hill Cumorah in New York?
February 13th, 2008 at 9:24 am
I’ve always thought that the word Cumorah meant something in the Nephite tongue. Like ‘knowledge’ or ‘wisdom’ so the name could be given to any hill that contains records.
February 13th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Great Post!
(no i, don’t have anything of substance to say. sorry.)
February 14th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Bryce writes:
Your presumption here is that the location of the hill Cumorah has been the subject of modern revelation. It hasn’t.
The prophets and other Church leaders who have said Cumorah was in New York believed it because that’s what everyone else believed.
February 14th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I think Ether 9:3 (quoted above) is the best argument that Hill Cumorah in New York is not where the Nephites were destroyed; there are no archaeological evidences of a great battle, with many thousands being killed there–no weapons, campsites, or other evidences of anyone having been there during that period of time. Many feel that the Jaredites were the Olmec civilization, who were in the Central American area. Moroni did wander around for many years, but I wonder how he would’ve carried the plates with him, when they weighed 50-75 pounds, while having other things to carry which were needed for his survival; and, also he needed to avoid being seen by enemies of all kinds. Could he have buried the plates in the hill when they were needed to be there? As a resurrected being he would’ve had no trouble transporting them there. Also, had he buried them there in 421 AD, wouldn’t erosion, and/or other natural events, have buried the box and its stone lid under the ground, so that it wasn’t on the surface, where it was easy to remove the lid?
February 14th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Mike writes:
Your presumption here is that prophets say things just because everyone else believes it too. I don’t think that is true. The prophets do not say thing just because those things are popular or the fads of the day. In fact, they usually go against the tide of popularity. Revelation does not come from the surrounding group; it comes from God.
I’m not saying that what the prophets said about the Hill Cumorah in New York is revelation. It may have been their opinion. But all things being equal, I will believe a prophet first over a scholar.
February 17th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Actually, prophets do say things that are faddish or popular. It’s part of being a human being.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Contrary to some beliefs, I tend to think there is plenty of evidence supporting the battles being conducted in the eastern united states
The new dvd by rod meldrum concerning dna evidence of the book of mormon is thought provoking and, indeed, revolutionary.
I highly recommend this dvd.
March 5th, 2008 at 10:13 am
RE: “there are no archaeological evidences of a great battle, with many thousands being killed there–no weapons, campsites, or other evidences of anyone having been there during that period of time.”
Are you an archaeologist? I doubt it. Has BYU archaeologists dug there? NO. Come back and make your claim once they have, because they are arguing from silence. There is no evidence at all that the New York Hill is NOT Cumorah. When they actually do some digs in New York to demonstrate that its not an ancient battlefield, then you can start talking. They haven’t done due diligence to prove it is not. They just state it as fact, as do you.
RE: “Contrary to some beliefs, I tend to think there is plenty of evidence supporting the battles being conducted in the eastern united states”
This old regurgitated garbage that the BYU archaeologists laugh at will not do. We need BYU to demonstrate that it is NOT Cumorah before anyone can say anything.
March 5th, 2008 at 10:38 am
RE: “there are no archaeological evidences of a great battle, with many thousands being killed there–no weapons, campsites, or other evidences of anyone having been there during that period of time.”
Your archaeological expectations are all messed up for a place that has been plowed over however many times it has been plowed over. You have no idea how it was before they started plowing it. Only by digging archaeologically can any remnants of anything be found.
March 5th, 2008 at 10:47 am
George J. (and others),
There has been some archaeological work done around Cumorah in New York, and it is reviewed very well in this article from FARMS.
The article is not that long and is definitely worth reading for anyone interested in the topic.
-Allen
March 5th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Thats an extremely poor bit of garbage, because he says, hey, look at what Ritchie says, and hey look, they dug up stuff for this highway and look what they found.
UNTIL BYU DOES A REAL ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIG AT CUMORAH AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR IT THEN YOU CAN SAY SOMETHING. UNTIL THEN, YOU CAN SAY NOTHING.
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I would refer you “Two Cumorah” boys to President Marion G. Romney’s October 1975 conference address entitiled “America’s Destiny”. Read it throughly and in particular the second to last paragraph which includes. “…I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true-both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come.” Sounds like a testimony of a member of the First Presidency to me!!!
Also read Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3 p. 232-243.
Let’s see statements and testimonies of members of the 12 and the First Presidency vs. LDS Scholars. I agree that’s a hard choice but as for me and my household I’m going with the GA’s on this one.
March 25th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
why does the hill cumorah(battleground) and the hill cumorah (library) have to be the same place?
March 25th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Gary
None, other than the text of the Book of Mormon says they were the same place.
Mormon 6:
4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.
5 And *when athree hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.
6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and
“hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord”,
“save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.”
7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.
8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.
9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.
10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.
11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.
Larry P