Speaking personally, when I write, I don’t wordsmith every phrase. Some people can do that, other people do better getting the whole argument or thesis down clearly, and then cleaning it up. That’s more me.

And, one can get tunnel vision about how one is sounding to someone who approaches material one labors over “fresh.”

I’ve written things in draft form that FAIR members have said, “Wow, that sounds really snarky. Can we fix it?” And they’re (usually!) right. But, I can honestly say that I (usually!) didn’t mean it–it just “came out that way,” or in context could too easily be read this way. It was usually the result of writing quickly or “off the cuff.”

Thus, things said in draft form or message boards are far more likely to get the broad strokes right, and the nuances less so. Latent hositlity/pride on the author’s part is one possible reason for such slips, but I don’t think they’re the only, or most important ones. In my own experience, more often than not it’s simply the vagaries of communicating about complex issues.

Patrick, it might be much more helpful if, when you make such charges, you could be more specific in what sentences you see as the problem. Otherwise all we have to go on are very vague sweeping interpretations by you. While I’m sure you’re quite sincere in your views, it’s awfully hard to discuss them. If we can point to a text and say, “well I don’t think that reading is fair for reasons A, B, and C” then we can have more nuanced discussion.

Otherwise we’re just swiping at shadows.

Certainly FAIR (and FARMS) have perception problems. Some of those are fair whereas most (in my opinion) are false. I think divesting themselves of the forum was wise. (I certainly encouraged that back when I still had time to volunteer for FAIR) I’ve not been associated with FAIR for some months now. However I remember when I was a member constant encouragement of humility and fairness as well as trying to prevent outright bashing. Style guides and the like were often discussed on the mailing list.

That’s not to say the occasional response or article doesn’t get through with perhaps unfortunate rhetoric. However I think those are by far the minority. It’s just that some point to a few mistakes as if they are characteristic of the whole. (I think this happens with FARMS as well where a small handful of articles are discussed and the vast majority ignored)

I have found that nothing is more dangerous to one’s own faith than the work of an apologist. No doctrine of that Faith seems to me so spectral, so unreal as one that I have just successfully defended in a public debate. For a moment, you see, it has seemed to rest on oneself: [perhaps one might say, ‘as we have seemed to depend on ourselves’?] as a result, when you go away from that debate, it seems no stronger than that weak pillar. That is why we apologists take our lives in our hands and can be saved only by falling back continually from the web of our own arguments, as from our intellectual counters, into the Reality—from Christian apologetics into Christ Himself. That also is why we need one another’s continual help—oremus pro invincem [Let us pray for each other].

I agree with Edwin that I can’t recall any FAIR member using the volunteer list to boast about bashing exploits, yet I can personally say I have silently rejoiced in being able to hold my own against some critics and gotten dejected when I wasn’t able to do so. I feel debater’s remorse sometimes, like I won the battle but lost the war. However my message board participation was NOT endorsed by FAIR in any way (and indeed discouraged to some extent).

I think most of the FAIR volunteers would agree with me that Edwin is one of the most humble guys involved and a good example for the rest of us.

I can state rather categorically that I am not glib. Rather, I am just making observations.

Edwin, did you even read Keller’s comment? Regarding the following:

Having been a member of FAIR for over 4 years, I can state rather categorically that I have never seen any sign of boasting by FAIR members over critics.

Of course you have never seen any sign of it. Why? Because, as you remind us, you’ve “been a member of FAIR for over 4 years,” and thus very likely part of the problem.

Having been a member of FAIR for over 4 years, I can state rather categorically that I have never seen any sign of boasting by FAIR members over critics. The only place I have seen it at all is the FAIR boards that we divested to the mormon apologetics boards, and even there it was not FAIR members but regular LDS participants. That was (and is) rather a wild and raucus place. FAIR, if it prides itself on anything, it is in providing a place where a member can go to find good information about the Church taught from a believing perspective.

One of my hopes for this blog is that it will help FAIR clean up its image. While some individuals may have occasionally entered into the spirit of one-upmanship with critics, I think as a whole we don’t really care about that. Our primary audience is members of the church who may have encountered criticism that has left them shaken. We realize that bashing critics is not going to be appealing to that audience and indeed counterproductive.

I have seen a lot of humility by FAIR members when we have come together to work on various projects, especially creating articles for the wiki. Even though many of us are strongly opinionated and well-studied on some of the controversial subjects, for the most part we have avoided the turf battles that have gone on, for example, in Wikipedia. It has been a beautiful thing to see at times as individual egos have been sacrificed for the benefit of providing what is, in essence, a charitable service for our fellow members of Zion.