With Romans 3 boasting would not be excluded if we did everything 100%.

I do not think the Lord has to accept an unbeliever’s confession of Jesus as Lord if they are disobeying him. If the unbeliever was truly saved they would demonstrate by their works they were saved. I do not care whether a person is saved before or after doing that good work as long as they were saved from hell. (Roman’s 10)

I know the proof texts for the grace alone doctrine. I am just not sure they mean obedience has no effect on salvation at all. God couldn’t hold any unbeliever guilty of anything at all if that were the case.(James 2:10) The unbeliever won’t be held guilty merely for not confessing Jesus, but for good works they were commanded to but didn’t.

I do not see good work’s as act’s of human effort, but yielding to God allowing him to work in us by his grace. (1 Cor. 15:10) Man is not saved by man’s effort. If God want’s a person to do a good work and they don’t do he decide’s if the eternal destiny of their soul will be effected.

I don’t think the gospel of Jesus foolish, nor would Jeremiah.

Doug – how nice to hear from you. Doug is my cousin and I have a great deal of respect for his thoughts and abilities. But then I guess that just comes with the common DNA we share.

While it is important to understand, as you have suggested, that grace is essential for both salvation and exaltation, it is still important to recognize the difference between the two. While the grace of God is THE determinant in salvation (as I have described that term to mean resurrection and living in a kingdom of glory thereby overcoming the transgression of Adam and the subsequent fall of man) of every individual that has lived upon the earth, the determinant for exaltation is different. THE determinant, that is the action or state that determines the outcome, is the combination of grace, as a necessary part of the whole, and the actions of the individual. Since grace, by definition, is freely given, then the real determinant for exaltation is the worthiness of the individual so as to acess the fuller grace that becomes available. This is a part of salvation/exaltation that other faiths do not even ask questions about as they have no concept that provides an opportunity to develop this sort of understanding.

When, Doug, in your second point you say that faith is “absolutely necessary” for salvation I think you make a mistake. According to LDS doctrine NOTHING is needed or essential for the basic salvation except the grace of God which is freely given to all mankind. No acknowledgement is required that there even is a Christ let alone the necessity to accept the Savior. This is why I maintain that the LDS doctrine is the only one that truly expresses a true understanding and belief in salvation by grace. Now, I acknowledge that every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ – but that is a deferred acknowledgement from that individual and is not a prerequisite for salvation.

The idea that you suggest that faith is just the beginning is, I think, correct. And it is one of those big differences between “them” and “us”. We do believe in eternal progression and that change that will take place in our faith, as well as all other essential parts of our being, as our faith is developed.

Thanks for your comments.

Here are a few thoughts that you might want to consider:

1. In the context of a discussion focused on grace and works, the amount of attention given to definitions of the meaning of salvation might serve more to muddy the waters than to clarify them. Given that without God’s grace, neither “salvation” nor “exaltation” are possible, it seems this might be a better starting/focal point for such a discussion.

2. As I understand it, the differences between Mormon and Creedal thought on this subject has hinged on a core difference of opinion on the meaning/definition of the word “faith”. Since Mormons and Creedals agree that faith in Christ is a requirement, and agreement tends to break down therafter, it may be that’s where the problem lies. As stated in your post, the Creedal belief is that faith consists of a declaration or acknowledgment of Christ’s existence, the recognition that His grace is needed for salvation, and a request for that grace. The Mormon view is that such a declaration, while absolutely necessary, is merely the beginning of faith, and that Christ has asked for more. Faith is thus measurable, (e.g., “mustard seed”) in action, (e.g., moving mountains). This belief stands in sharp contrast to the Jews of Paul’s day who believed that salvation was earned by observance of the rituals or “works” required by Mosaic law. This is the mistaken accusation which Creedals make against the Mormon belief.

Arminianism = acceptance of election

Calvinism = non-resistance to election

Mormonism = campaigning for election

Mormons believe all of these scriptures, and have no disagreement with any of them.

Unless, of course, you think your interpretation of scripture must be granted the same deference as the scripture itself?

Greg

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Eph 2: 8,9

“Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” Titus 1:9

“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.” Romans 3:25-27

“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10 8-17

I hope that you forsake this foolishness and turn to the living and the true God. Jeremiah 10:10

BTW……….I love this blog!

Of course this only adds to the idea of universal salvation given by the grace of God to all mankind, for all will qualify even by this minimal standard.

As far as ignoring the differences between salvation and exaltation – well that is the very problem we are faced with and that I am trying to address. It really does not make sense to allow our critics to define the question. We, as LDS, believe in salvation by grace and exaltation by a combination of the grace that allows us and the obedience that enables it.

They are very different concepts and to join them together results in the current state of affairs and a great deal of misunderstanding.

Thanks for commenting, George

To play Evangelical’s advocate, however, aren’t we being a little disingenuous to ignore the doctrine of exaltation? I understand your argument for excluding it (because technically, our view of exaltation goes well beyond their view of salvation). But I think most Evangelicals would object and say that we should compare their view of salvation to our view of exaltation, since they are equivalent in that they represent the highest level of glory we can aspire to.

What do you see as particularly polemic in the post? What, specifically, do you see as evidence of inflexibility?

-Allen

If this is the sort of “scholarship” that FAIR blog intends to bring to the bloggernacle, I for one, am disheartened. Mormon Mommy Wars is more insightful (and less polemic) than this.

That’s my understanding at least.

I do think the LDS view is much more just, flexible, practical, meaningful, etc.

I have also often felt that if the LDS person and the evangelical person would really listen to each other, they would find that they are not as far apart as they often think.

Concerns about hell to most LDS is to try to minimize the amount of time spent there while awaiting resurrection, i.e. the spirit prison and not the final state.

Thanks for the great article George!

-Ed